• Sonwill industrial track near the WSRR

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

  by NYCRRson
 
BR&P, I swear it's a true story, the Bailey Ave Overpass over the NYCRR mainline (CR at that time) collapsed onto the railroad tracks below... Stopped all RR mainline traffic until they could clean up the mess....

I could not find a newspaper account, but the Bailey Ave overpass (South of Broadway and North of the Lovejoy area) fell onto the NYCRR/PC/CONRAIL mainline tracks... It was demolished and rebuilt.

Ironic thing was I was returning from College down in Delaware on Amtrak using my Father's RR Pass and I got delayed getting home to BCT because of the bridge collapse.

Dad's train was stuck under the bridge and I was stuck East of the bridge....

I don't remember if Dad's train was moving slowly or already stopped, it was a while ago... But either way he did not reach his destination...

Nobody was hurt, but it delayed things for a day or two at least. Probably find an article about it in the Buffalo News Archives.

So it had to be before the fall of "79 when BCT went OOS. I took Amtrak from BCT/Depew down and back to college in Delaware from "76 to "80 using my Fathers Amtrak pass privileges... Airplane flights were still "expensive" back then and getting back and forth to college for free was welcomed by a "not too rich" college student....

And my Dad worked overtime on the "engine change" job at Frontier Yard so I could graduate from college debt free, what a guy.... RIP Dad...

Cheers, Kevin.
  by Fireman43
 
TrainDetrainer. thanks for the advice on these historical sites to search.
I always had problems before trying to navigate the sanburn and Erie county sites so I didn't pursue but will take the time to educate my self.

thanks for your help .
Mark
  by BR&P
 
Well, in the ongoing effort to sort out stuff in the basement, I came across the following which might be timely and helpful. The entire document is much larger (includes Niagara Falls all the way to Blasdell Jct) but I think I have the part that applies to this discussion.
img245 - Copy.jpg
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  by TrainDetainer
 
I'm a bit curious about the context of the red lined route from Bison to FW to Tifft/N&W. Any notes on there about its meaning, or just showing the intermodal/through route?
  by BR&P
 
There is no key added to the map by whoever drew in the colored lines. The LV line segment in yellow we know was removed. The red line extends all the way from Bison down the B&SW to the edge of the map (well beyond Blasdell Jct), on the former EL branch which became NYLE and now is BSOR.

So I'd say someone took an existing map and colored in the changes which were contemplated. It came from Erie County I think, and this copy came from info about the part at the top which is now operated by GVT, at a time when that line's future was being determined.

Perhaps the county was considering acquiring the EL all the way into Bison instead of just interchanging at BC as it is now done.
  by ctclark1
 
NYCRRson wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:44 pm I believe, but could be mistaken, that the Gardenville line (also known as the compromise track) was part of the NY & HR RR before the WS&BRR was purchased by the NY & HR RR.
You're confusing two names here, btw:

The Compromise Track (as Conrail called it) was originally one of the 2 tracks that carried the NYC Main line (and thus most likely dating back to the NY&HR) running from BCT/Frontier Yard through Buffalo. I presume the reason it was called the Compromise was something to do with an agreement Conrail made with somebody when they reconfigured what is now CP-437 (PC and early Conrail: "CP-49A") and CP-2 (PC: "Interlocking BC") to move the Chicago Line over the former Buffalo Creek trackage through CP-DRAW and away from the CP-1 bridge (PC: part of "CP FO"). The Compromise track was unrelated to the Gardenville branch in any way, other than being an alternative route.

The Gardenville Branch was originally the Gardenville Cutoff, built by the Terminal Railway of Buffalo and opened in 1898 to provide bypass of downtown buffalo between the 4-Track Mainline in Depew with the LS&MS (part of NYC) in Lackawanna. The additional connection to the West Shore was not built until around 1923. The Gardenville Yard was primarily a run-through yard for crew/equipment changes on LD trains, as opposed to Frontier and Seneca Yards, which were classification yards. The Gardenville Branch as we know it nowadays only exists from the connection at Seneca Yard/CP-5 to between Willet Rd and the B&O overpass where the current "Buffalo Line" transitions to the PRR West Seneca Branch and connects to the PRR Buffalo Line at Gardenville Junction (CP-GJ).
  by BR&P
 
ctclark1 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:46 pm The Gardenville Yard was primarily a run-through yard for crew/equipment changes on LD trains, as opposed to Frontier and Seneca Yards, which were classification yards.
It was my understanding that Frontier essentially replaced Gardenville. Perlman was big on automated, latest-technology (for their time) hump yards and Frontier was built to replace, not augment Gardenville. It's possible that for some time between Frontier's opening and the total removal of G'ville, they did relay trains through there, I can't say one way or another.

I suppose it's worth mentioning the urban legend, or maybe "sandhouse story" would be a better term. It's been claimed that the property where Gardenville was located was given to or leased to the railroad by the Vanderbilts, and carried with it a clause that there was a fee of $1.00 per car which was switched there going to the Vanderbilt family, for as long as the yard existed. Thus the impetus to build Frontier, and be out from under that payment. These reports have always - in MY experience - been followed by the disclaimer that it's not true and is just an old legend.

But FWIW, there it is.
  by lvrr325
 
BR&P wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:41 pm There is no key added to the map by whoever drew in the colored lines. The LV line segment in yellow we know was removed. The red line extends all the way from Bison down the B&SW to the edge of the map (well beyond Blasdell Jct), on the former EL branch which became NYLE and now is BSOR.

So I'd say someone took an existing map and colored in the changes which were contemplated. It came from Erie County I think, and this copy came from info about the part at the top which is now operated by GVT, at a time when that line's future was being determined.

Perhaps the county was considering acquiring the EL all the way into Bison instead of just interchanging at BC as it is now done.
Is it possible that what went to GVT was originally intended to be included with what became the Buffalo Southern?
  by BR&P
 
lvrr325 wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:50 am
Is it possible that what went to GVT was originally intended to be included with what became the Buffalo Southern?
I think it's more likely the county was looking at "OK. these lines are up for abandonment. What are our needs and what are the options?" There was a LOT of stuff going on back then - studies, proposals, horse-trading, subsidies etc. Keep in mind too that the present-day BSOR was operated by NY&LE before being split off. Whether there was consideration of one entity operating everything shown there I can't say for sure but don't recall it being anywhere close to reality.
  by ctclark1
 
BR&P wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:53 am It was my understanding that Frontier essentially replaced Gardenville. Perlman was big on automated, latest-technology (for their time) hump yards and Frontier was built to replace, not augment Gardenville. It's possible that for some time between Frontier's opening and the total removal of G'ville, they did relay trains through there, I can't say one way or another.
Strictly speaking "Frontier" yard was rebuilt as a Hump Yard which among other reasons led to the closure and dismantling of Gardenville, however there had been a NYC&HRR yard (under a different name, I can't find it at the moment) in the same location which predated the Terminal Railway's forming and construction of the G'ville yards (compare https://www.historicaerials.com/locatio ... 2/T1894/13 with later topos showing the cutoff). The cutoff was originally built as a bypass of the circuitous downtown route (remember that NYC&HRR originally went downtown by way of the current "Compromise" branch and the CP-1 bridge, not through the current BCK RR routing that Conrail rebuilt) to get trains into the Seneca yards. At this same time some trains still went into what is now Frontier. It was only a few years later that the (now removed) southbound connection at what would probably now be considered CP-6 was built allowing through-traffic, and it was at this time that the yards in G'ville had begun to be built, spelling a further reduction in traffic through the downtown routing, and making things slightly simpler for passenger trains at BCT when that was built as they would be almost exclusive in their use of what is now CP-1 until Frontier was rebuilt.

There's further previous discussion of the Gardenville Cutoff's past and (lack of) a future here and here. (The second one is more a discussion of potential future use of the line, but does have discussion about the history of the routing.)
  by TrainDetainer
 
ctclark1 wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 7:21 am It was only a few years later that the (now removed) southbound connection at what would probably now be considered CP-6 was built allowing through-traffic...
Would never have been a CP-6. Lines West for the most part didn't use numbers for SSs - they use more traditional letter designations. The connection from the Gville (listed as Main Tracks 5 and 6 in an old TT IIRC, gone from main track numbering by 1940) to Seneca was 'D' tower, now CP-5, and the west bound connection to the mainline was at BV (simply Bayview at the end of CR). When the division point was at Bayview it was MP 8.2 (just west of Bayview Road crossing), so if it had still been around it would have likely been CP-8.
  by ctclark1
 
"what would probably now be considered"... AKA, not what it would've been when it existed, I wasn't going to speculate what it would've been called. I presume if it had still been in existence today it would've been a CP-6 because it is within Mile 6 (b/t MP6 and MP7). I don't have a TC from when the south leg of that connection did exist so I can't say for sure what they called it.

BTW - I found reference to it finally - Frontier was previously called the East Buffalo Yard before being rebuilt. Who'da thunkit.
  by TrainDetainer
 
ctclark1 wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:30 pm "what would probably now be considered"... AKA, not what it would've been when it existed, I wasn't going to speculate what it would've been called. I presume if it had still been in existence today it would've been a CP-6 because it is within Mile 6 (b/t MP6 and MP7). I don't have a TC from when the south leg of that connection did exist so I can't say for sure what they called it.

BTW - I found reference to it finally - Frontier was previously called the East Buffalo Yard before being rebuilt. Who'da thunkit.
But you did speculate. And again, it was NOT between 6 and 7. And it wasn't the southbound connection - NYC was an east-west RR and the connection you're referring to is the west connection (SS D/CP-5 is the east connection). The west connection was, as I said, at BV, which is MP8.2 - between 8 and 9, so it would have been CP-8 if they'd had it when CR-style locations came to be (and CP-8 on the NiagBr would likely have remained H to avoid confusion). In any case, in NYC Buffalo Division days BV was MP445.8. Even if you want to talk LS&MS MPs it would likely have been CP-7 (BV was MP7.98 from Buffalo for the LS&MS) had that scheme still been in effect.