septa advisory board and the PCC II's

[jfrey40535]

Funny how there's always enough captial funding to buy buses, so why not for trolleys? We'd have the 23 and 56 had it not been for the recent pave over job. What gives?

23 probablly needs 40-60 cars to run peak hour service and have a few spares on hand.

[Clearfield]

What gives?

You can probably buy a bus for about 250K (just my guess)
A new trolley costs 3mm.

At that rate, you can buy 12 buses for the cost of one new trolley.

[Matthew Mitchell]

They literally don't have the trolleys to run the service. The 23 is the longest city route. That means they need alot of equipment to run it. If SEPTA can get the capital cash to buy enough trolleys to run the route, (and I do not know how many that would be, although I'll bet that Matt does) it could come back.

<lurch>Youuu raaang?</lurch> (I actually sound like that at the moment)

Let me pull out my Annual Service Plan...

23 needs 29 buses to make the line. That's a lot but not quite the most. The C needs 31 and the 18 needs 30. Other routes that are up there are G (26), 52 (23), 70 (23), 47 (21 plus 4 for 47m), 36 (21), and 14 (20).

Now considering that trolleys can replace buses 2 for 3 or 3 for 4 (I forget the exact ratio, but it's the result of higher capacity and faster speed), you're talking about 20-22 trolleys for 23 (assuming the better service doesn't attract more riders).

[Matthew Mitchell]

What gives?

You can probably buy a bus for about 250K (just my guess)
A new trolley costs 3mm.

At that rate, you can buy 12 buses for the cost of one new trolley.

The price of buses is not that low any more. And the economic life of trolleys is at least twice as long, probably three times (look what great shape the subway-surface cars are in--anyone remember what the RTS buses of the same era were like after about five years?). Put together with the abovementioned capacity advantage, the capital cost difference is a lot less than a factor of 12.

That said though, yeah, trolleys are going to be more capital-intensive than buses. Hopefully you make it back on operating savings and increased ridership. Saving one out of four operators year after year adds up in a hurry.

[jfrey40535]

Buses are still around 250k/ea. But good point that trolleys last much longer. SEPTA gets about 10-15 years out of a bus, but look at the poor shape of the remaining Neoplans. The NABI's aren't looking so hot for that matter.

But look at how many people a single trolley can hold verses a bus. Definitely savings there, but thats a foreign concept at SEPTA.

[Urban D Kaye]

So I'll ask...
In the unfortunate event that the ever-crusading Mr. Nutter is able to block a return of trolleys to Route 15, is there any chance that Route 23 will use the currently idle PCC-II cars to fill the previously mentioned equipment shortage...and that we'll see a return of trolleys to Rt 23 rather than Rt 15?

[Clearfield]

is there any chance that Route 23 will use the currently idle PCC-II cars to fill the previously mentioned equipment shortage...and that we'll see a return of trolleys to Rt 23 rather than Rt 15?

Unfortunately, the PCC II's use alot more power than the original equipment. This meant that the entire Route 15 power infrastructure had to be rebuilt. You can run PCC II's on the 23, but of you had all of the cars running, you'd be tripping substation breakers or worse.

[Urban D Kaye]

Unfortunately, the PCC II's use alot more power than the original equipment. This meant that the entire Route 15 power infrastructure had to be rebuilt. You can run PCC II's on the 23, but of you had all of the cars running, you'd be tripping substation breakers or worse.

Hmmm. That's a real problem. OK, thanks for the info.

[SEPTALRV9072]

I thought SEPTA recently upgraded the Butler Substation.

[Clearfield]

I thought SEPTA recently upgraded the Butler Substation.

The work done for the Route 15 was the entire electrical infrastructure, down to the overhead.

[jfrey40535]

There aren't enough PCC-II's to run on the 23 anyway. Why didn't SEPTA just have all of thre remaining PCC's rebuilt instead of 18? 18 doesen't quite sound like enough if one goes down for service or something like that. What a crime it was when they sold them all off in the '90's.

[Clearfield]

Why didn't SEPTA just have all of thre remaining PCC's rebuilt instead of 18?

The condition of the remaining units is iffy. If SEPTA can get capital money to buy trolleys for Route 23, they would last 40 years.

Why would anyone give SEPTA that money if the city of Philadelphia won't let SEPTA run the Route 15 which already cost over 90 million dollars to restore?

[jfrey40535]

The 15 is a technicallity. I'd like to think sooner or later they will run. Most likely later of course. As is stands now, looks like we'll be waiting till summer. A Callowhill operator told me SEPTA has a lawyer devoted to this full time. Wonder what his hourly rate is...

Regarding the 23, has SEPTA even asked for the money? Its in the Capital budget, but is it that its so far down the priority list that it will never get done? I can't wait to see what the cost over runs on the MFL reconstruction are going to be. I'm surprised SEPTA isn't in court over that mess on Market Street, or that the current El structure hasn't fallen down yet.

I simply get mad when I see projects like "Smart Stations" given higher priority than something like trolley cars, trackless coaches or regional rail expansion.

[Silverliner II]

The Butler substation also provides power for the Broad Street Line, which is why it was rebuilt.

Considering that the average (i.e. non-transit/rail/bus fan) SEPTA commuter doesn't even CARE what their vehicle is, just as long as it shows up reliably every day, is it any surprise that there is no action over restoring 23 and 56 to rail? When the trackless trolley lines were operating, I continually heard people referring to the TT coaches as "buses". On past fantrips with PCC's along the Route 23, we would roll up to various corners, and regular paying riders would try to board the car, then get upset when we tell them that we're not a revenue car.

Now that I have that vent off my chest, I was told back in 1996 that at that time, they would need 78 trolleys (includes spares) to operate 15, 23, and 56 at that time. Applying that number now, when you talk about a bus costing about $320,000 vs. an LRV running $3 million per unit....that is cash not in the SEPTA budget. Add to that the fact that the 23 would need electrical infrastructure improvement and maintenance facilities for a fleet.

Of course, with the 56 gone forever east of the Torresdale & Hunting Park Avenue turnaround by North Catholic, the odds that we will see 56 and 23 ever run as rail again in our lifetimes? Zero.

Although I do hope that I turn out wrong.

[JeffK]

Considering that the average (i.e. non-transit/rail/bus fan) SEPTA commuter doesn't even CARE what their vehicle is, just as long as it shows up reliably every day, is it any surprise that there is no action over restoring 23 and 56 to rail? When the trackless trolley lines were operating, I continually heard people referring to the TT coaches as "buses".

When I worked in CC, a co-worker (with a graduate education, btw) told me he was going to take the "34 bus" to Drexel. I said that the 34 was not a bus, then waited for his response ... "yeah, it's the bus that runs in the tunnel next to the subway."

whimper, whimper.