Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

35dtmrs92 wrote:I definitely would like to see, perhaps, a connection from the 63rd St line to the 60th St bores under the east river. That would enable an Astoria express service, something needed for that area.

The 60th St. tunnel can reach either Astoria or the local tracksof the IND Queens Line. It would probably take some extensive construction and landtaking to tie the 63rd St. tunnel into the Astoria El. The three blocks difference on the Manhattan side makes a great deal of difference on the Queens side. The difficult construction is why it took so long to connect the F via 63rd. As it is both 60th St. branches divert south to reach their respective Queens Plaza stations. If you want to destroy a large part of that area, a connection is possible. From a political viewpoint, there is more to be lost than gained.

Also, please explain your idea of an Astoria Express. Today's N runs express in Manhattan and then makes two stops before reaching the 31st St. El which is only 5 or 6 stops long. A 63rd St. Routing would make two also, three if it was routed to Queensboro Plaza somehow. What is there to gain?

The W train used to run local in Manhattan but express from QBP to Astoria Bvld. Given the growth in the area (and continued growth) I'd say it is worth looking at.

Big News!

First State of the MTA Address

But here are the juicy bits that pertain to this thread:

MTA Releases 40-Year Transportation Vision
Last year, the MTA began an ongoing process of identifying a 25 to 40-year vision for the region’s transportation network. Today Sander revealed an outline of the vision for the first time. The vision provides a more streamlined regional transportation experience building on the expected completion of projects currently underway, especially Second Avenue Subway and East Side Access. $50 million is included in the 2008-2013 capital program for needed further study of many of these ideas. Highlights include:

Extension of the full-length Second Avenue Subway to West Harlem, the Bronx, Queens and Brooklyn
* Spur to West Harlem under 125th Street
* Extension to Queens via the 63rd Street tunnel to relieve crowding on the Queens Boulevard line
* Extension to Brooklyn, consistent with plans for the Lower Manhattan rail link, through Downtown Brooklyn and along the Atlantic Avenue branch of the LIRR to connect with the AirTrain in Jamaica
* Extension north into the Bronx hub/Dyre Avenue corridor

Utilize East Side Access and Congestion Pricing Funds to Improve Service for Metro-North
* Introduce Metro-North service to Penn Station, with new stations:
o Co-Op City
o Parkchester
o Hunts Point

Use Underutilized Rights-of-Way and Middle Tracks to Provide New Service
* Explore the Regional Plan Association’s circumferential subway line proposal, which would convert the lightly used Bay Ridge freight line into a subway service arcing from southern Brooklyn to Queens to the Bronx.
* Use middle tracks on elevated subway lines, primarily in Brooklyn and the Bronx, to provide new express service.
* Alleviate crowding on the Queens Boulevard line by using space on Main Line right-of-way for new tracks; utilize Rockaway Beach right-of-way to extend service from Main Line corridor to southern Queens and the Rockaway Peninsula.

I'm guessing they're resurrecting the 60's plan (see nycsubway.org, I think) for 2nd Av service on the old Dyre Av/NYW&B line. I suppose some stations in the Bronx (e.g. Pelham Pkwy) would resurrect their four track status for express service, and this would free up some capacity for the 5 trains currently running on the Lex and WP Road line for more Bronx express service.

* Extension to Brooklyn, consistent with plans for the Lower Manhattan rail link, through Downtown Brooklyn and along the Atlantic Avenue branch of the LIRR to connect with the AirTrain in Jamaica

I don't get this, why not just run a tunnel to Court St IND and have that go to Jamacia via the Fulton St Line? Seems like it would be cheaper than having to build new tracks along the LIRR on Atlantic.

Wallyhorse wrote:They are looking at the Bronx as one option, though if there is a Bronx branch of the SAS, it would probably have a stop at 126th street and 2nd Avenue, separate from the 125th/Lexington-Park Avenue stop that currently is supposed to be the northern terminal and continue from there via the former Bronx 3rd Avenue El route, though this time as a new underground line.

Speaking of 125th Street, there is now talk on another board of that part of the SAS being extended all the way west, and if it happens, such an spur would likely include additional stops on 125th street at Lenox Avenue (transfer to the 2/3), 8th/St. Nicholas Avenue (transfer to the A/B/C/D) and Broadway-12th Avenue (transfer to the 1), which would be the terminal for such a branch that also may include a connection at 8th/St. Nicholas from the SAS that would allow the SAS to access the 8th avenue and Concourse lines in upper Manhattan, and also would allow when needed 6th and/or 8th avenue trains to use the SAS.

This change is probably inspired by the fact Columbia University is going to be greatly expanding in the next 10-15 years, and by the time such expansion is complete, there likely will be a serious need for the 125th street crosstown going all the way to Broadway-12th Avenue, as there may also by then be a new Metro North station there, and in any event the current 1 station on Broadway and 125th by itself may not be enough to handle what is likely going to be a lot of "reverse commuter" traffic by that time.

That's the first I've heard of a Third Av El routing; the MTA specifically said Dyre Av line. The idea is intriguing, though, considering the revitalization of the area and from what I've read on here, the crowded nature of the buses running in it's place. Still, isn't that kind of duplicating the Concourse line? You'd have Jerome, Concourse, and Third all in close proximity, as well as the Harlem line. I think there's a greater need for E Bronx enhanced service, either on the 6 or 5. I also think what you need more is a cross-Bronx type service, along Tremont or Fordham Rd.

As for Columbia, I don't think MNRR is contemplating any additional Manhattan stops on the West Side line as part of Penn access, and that might interfere as well with Empire service. Plus, that grade is pretty steep up to the U, isn't it? It would make more sense for Univ commuters to get off at the existing 125th St. stop and take the subway extension cross-town. I think the only stop in Manhattan that might make sense would either be Riverside park, or Dykemans.

One of the original plans back in the 1970s was to have the Second Avenue Subway emerge somewhere around Harlem River or West Farms, then utilize the old four-track NYW&B viaduct to East 180th Street and up to Dyre Avenue. Of course, the viaduct is now gone (2002), so that is a costly piece of infrastructure to replace (if that is indeed the routing to be considered).

-otto-

I'm not sure what shape that viaduct was in anyway. I remember a post from Mr. Weaver that he had taken one of if not the last run on it to either pick up or drop off subway cars, I think. I forget what he posted as to the time frame (year); after that run, they removed the interlocking on the Hell Gate line to it and the viaduct sat unused for years. Still, given the solid construction of the NYW&B, maybe all they would have needed was new track. I believe it was torn down to accomodate a new bus terminal / facility, wasn't it? I bet that makes reconstruction even more problematic.

Anyway, I'm sure Dyre could use more service; it's used as a cheap commute alternative to Manhattan since it runs mostly express past 180 during rush hours. I used it for that purpose myself. Now with the congestion, I'm not sure if that's practical.

FOAM ALERT: Who knows, maybe the oft-foamed dream of service across 233rd St and Connor Av to Co-Op City and looping to the 6 will come to pass? (Yeah, right, that's serious foam!)

-if there is now thought of hooking the SAS to Brooklyn, Dyre Ave, 125th St. West, third Ave in the Bronx etc. How on earth is all this traffic going to fit on a two track local only line under Second Ave?
-the original Second Ave concept was for local plus express in four tracks, which could have handled such ambitious connections.
-has there been thought of adding some four track stations or by pass tracks to allow more intensive service on the new Second Avenue line?

Roger

Wallyhorse wrote:Actually:

One thing that was proposed not that long ago was to have a new Rockaway branch that would use many of the tracks abandoned north of the Liberty Avenue El in Queens. In turn, one thing that has been seriously discussed on another board is this line should double as the proposed Queens Super Express. In that regard, I suggested there having what would be new route for the N (while the W becomes the full-time Astoria train) that I can see becoming one half of the proposed Rockaway Line/Queens Super Express that I would do as follows:

1. Having this Rockaway/Queens super express stop on a lower level of Roosevelt Avenue (or the never-used upper level station there) before then going basically on a straight line through a new tunnel that would wind up on 79th street in Manhattan and make a new stop there at York-1st Avenues, then go to a lower level stop at 72nd/2nd under the planned SAS station and from there split into two, with the N going with the Q to 63rd/Lex and then on its existing route while the other half (which I will for now designate as the K train) joining the T to make up the SAS. Given the exteremly high density of the area between 72nd and 86th streets, especially east of second avenue, I suspect even with entrances to the SAS at 72nd and 83rd streets a station at 79th and York-1st Avenues would be among the most heavily used non-CBD stations in the entire system, which is why I would make such a station three tracks and two island platforms to allow for some trains on both the SAS and Broadway lines to short-turn at 79th/York-1st during rush hour if more trains than the 24tph I would anticipate such a new tunnel using are needed.

This new Rockaway line if it happens I think if coupled with the Queens Super Express and also a new tunnel under 79th street in Manhattan that can in turn give those east of 2nd avenue a station that they don't have a considerable walk to get to at 79th I think would be very heavily used.

For christ's sake I told you on subchat more than once that your 79th street plan wouldn't float, and yet you keep on talking about it. and it's not a considerable walk to get to second from the river on that end. I walked from lexington once and it wasn't that long of a walk.

Wallyhorse wrote:Kamen Rider:

I used to do the walk to the Lexington Avenue line all the time when I was younger (and in fact, often actually did a longer walk to an express station), however:

The you see my point.

A lot of people nowadays are often in a much bigger hurry, or are lazier, or both or for some other reason don't want to walk as far. This is especially true in the neighborhood I grew up in in Manhattan, which is arguably the most densely populated neighborhood in ALL of NYC. This station I would propose (79th and York-1st Avenue) I think would be among the busiest non-CBD stations in the entire city, even with two other SAS stations close by. This also can be the Queens SAS (via the long-proposed super express route), as well as the proposed Rockaway route as there has been a lot of talk about it (on another board) through an article that (as of probably March 21) you will be able to see at:

http://www.rockawave.com/news/2008/0307 ... y/057.html

(Note: The article is from the Rockaway paper The Wave, which requires a paid subscription to read articles from the two most recent issues, however, as this article apparently came out on March 7, it probably becomes a free article on March 21 or whereabouts once the next issue of that paper comes out, the article itself I did see as it was originally posted on another board).

Didn't realize you can read minds. oh wait, you can't. so, how do you know what people in that area want? Did you stand around and give a servay for hours on end?

This is a city of walkers. for example, I walked from 55th&7th to 59&10th today to get to class. the it was back to 60th' and broadway. then it was about 10 short blocks after getting off the train to get back to my house. The other day I walked from 59th and 10th to 68th and lex becuase of the Parade.

your station a 79th between york and frist would have to be just as deep as 63rd and lex. that's a big turnoff when the elevators are off.

For those who can't see the article (as of when this was written), basically, there is a proposal to re-open what is now known as the LIRR "White Pot Junction" line in The Rockaways, of which the non-abandoned part is the current A train to Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park. The thinking some have is, if this line actually came to fruition, it can run along there to potentially hook up with the Queens Boulevard line, but because of capacity issues on that line, some have said this should be the super express. My thinking is, since some have also said this could be the Queens SAS is that this such line can be the "Super Express", and also perhaps be the Queens SAS by running through a new tunnel on 79th street with the 79th street/York-1st Avenue stop and then a stop on a lower level of 72nd/2nd before splitting up, with one half joining the T on the SAS and the other half going with the Q to Broadway, which would also serve the purpose of making the Broadway line more efficient.

OK, frist thing, it's name is the Rockaway Beach Branch. and FYI, it was never abandoned. neither the LIRR or the City filed for abandoment of the ROW with the government. they could go it with chainsaws, new rails signals and have a useable rail line in a few weeks, they only catch would be the illegel takeovers of the row and a missing bridge over the lower montauk.

the capicty issue on the QB is with locals terminating at 71st street. if say the V was routed onto the rockaway Beach, it would free up the terminal space at 71st. I ride the QB often in the AM rush, and there can be long waits for a local.

won't be much of a supper express if it's running local from the upper east side to the battery! 72, 55, 42, 34, 23, 14, houston, grand, Chatham, Seaport and Hanover. there are already specs included for a turn out from 63rd. use that.

This would be one half of the SAS trains with the T south of 72nd street once the T line starts when the SAS reaches Houston Street. This can give the SAS double what it would have south of 72nd as the Q train will of course head to the Broadway line via 63rd after 72nd.

Hope that helps clear this up.

the only way it will clear up is if you stop spreading this pie in the sky garbage around.

In my opinion....I dont care what they do....the SAS is gonna become packed also...its not gonna be finished till like 20-10-11...the population of NYC is going up so.......just another packed subway line