Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

ck4049 wrote:Coach 254 has been out of service at BET for the past several months awaiting carbody repairs...you sure it wasn't 244?

My bad...I was going from memory. It was definitely a 25x, definitely not a repeating decimal, and pretty sure numbers were in close succession...so: 253, 256, 257? Whichever one of those from the OC pool was operating in a five-pack with 4 bi-levels and a 202x-numbered HSP-46 on the midday Wed.


FWIW...the sound pitch those brakes were making was not quite at high as what squealing rails would make, and loud squealing rails have never bothered me in the slightest. When I was sitting around killing time on the Quincy Center platform waiting for the train I noticed what an unusually squealy spot that was for both the passing CR trains, and also the outbound Reds which made a hell of a racket when they pulled out of the platform and passed the switch to the turnback yard. Didn't faze me. But boy oh boy whatever Hz range that Rotem trailer's brakes were singing at landed square on some pain center in my brain I never knew existed. No exaggeration: the reaction was physical pain.

It would be very wise not to go with the Rotems again, but what do I know, I only operate them and don't sit behind a desk clicking a mouse button..... As mentioned time and time again before, these cars aren't going to last 15 years at the rate that they are deteriorating already. The original Kawasaki order is the most reliable piece of equipment on this RR, along with the F40 rebuilds

FCMB might want to rethink that option consideration. SEPTA just dropped a huge bombshell by pulling ALL Rotem Silverliner V's from service for the holiday weekend for inspection because of fresh discovery of a new and severe structural defect: viewtopic.php?f=72&t=162919" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Decision TBD on whether and how many will be returning to service for the workweek under what restrictions, but they are hinting this could be major and long-term requiring emergency mitigation efforts for running the railroad. More details to come in a scheduled press conference, but this looks bad as it gets for Hyundai-Rotem's rep.

Gives one pause...Silverliner V's are EMU...do they share truck castings/parts with the Rottem coaches?

BandA wrote:Gives one pause...Silverliner V's are EMU...do they share truck castings/parts with the Rottem coaches?

Doubt it, since a single-level EMU and a bi-level coach are such very structurally different beasts. This was a truck assembly that Rotem sourced from a third party, and since it's unlikely that any of their push-pull bi-levels use either the same truck design or the same truck subcontractor...odds are very slim that that the T, Tri-Rail, or Metrolink fleets are in any way impacted. Just Denver's SLV's; they're going to have to scramble the same inspections this weekend. If there's anything even incidentally related to this that the T would need to inspect, we'd already have a press statement from them on this because the spreading news reports from Philly beckon the question. No news is therefore good news if the T isn't making a preemptive statement about due-diligence inspections.



Bigger consequence is that H-R is now so thoroughly radioactive it would be insane for any public authority in the U.S. to do business with them, and that includes the FCMB exercising this contract option. In-house legal counsel will strongly advise them "DO NOT WANT!" as long as there's threat of a potential SEPTA v. H-R lawsuit. And since the Silverliner fix is looking complicated and potentially very drawn-out since the parts supply to repair all 120 units requires an emergency component manufacturing run, it'll take many months of digging to sort out whether SEPTA has any legal grounds to seek damages from Rotem. A longer period of uncertainty than the FCMB has for making an up/down decision on exercising this +75 option. Window of opportunity likely just closed on that.

If the Silverliner fiasco heads to court it's tantamount to removing Rotem entirely from the domestic market for a period of many years, because if they weren't toxic enough already the drawn-out litigation pretty much imposes a no-touch order for every transit agency coast-to-coast. Basically in that worst-case it's in corporate's best interests to take a knee, withdraw with a self-imposed moratorium on bidding, nuke the U.S. division in entirety, build a new business unit from scratch, and quietly reintroduce themselves to the U.S. in 10 years with "a whole new Rotem" emphasizing zero resemblance to the previous incarnation. Sort of like Breda did after the T and MUNI debacles when it laid low from North American bidding for many years before returning to competition. Only Breda did have well-established U.S. rep in other market segments such as heavy rail before it stubbed its toe on those brutal light rail orders. Rotem's a first-time entrant on this continent and has yet to produce any orders (outside of Skytrain Canada Line's full-automated HRT cars, which I haven't heard anything pro or con about) free of rampant complaints about poor build quality. There's really nothing left for them to fight for in their current domestic incarnation if this Silverliner situation goes into full meltdown.

At the same time, given their radioactivity, the only way H-R has to salvage their reputation is to deliver flawless stuff on the MBTA option order. From the mothership's perspective, such an order would be a last chance to redeem their whole effort in the USA.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:

BandA wrote:Gives one pause...Silverliner V's are EMU...do they share truck castings/parts with the Rottem coaches?

Doubt it, since a single-level EMU and a bi-level coach are such very structurally different beasts. This was a truck assembly that Rotem sourced from a third party, and since it's unlikely that any of their push-pull bi-levels use either the same truck design or the same truck subcontractor...odds are very slim that that the T, Tri-Rail, or Metrolink fleets are in any way impacted. Just Denver's SLV's; they're going to have to scramble the same inspections this weekend. If there's anything even incidentally related to this that the T would need to inspect, we'd already have a press statement from them on this because the spreading news reports from Philly beckon the question. No news is therefore good news if the T isn't making a preemptive statement about due-diligence inspections.

Our trucks are third party vendor as well. They have had some defects found here and there as well. The Tri-Rail and Metrolink cars have totally different trucks. The plan was to use the Metrolink design on our cars, but because our cars are smaller the outboard disc brakes would not fit the car body clearances. Part of the delay after initial SEPTA order delay was indeed truck issues.

Are the trucks interchangeable with the Kawasakis? Will the Rotems end up like MBB orphans...

The trucks are not compatible. But they basically redesigned the K car truck to fit the Rotems. They are very close in specs.

Per the SEPTA press conference...the Silverliners' truck beam manufacturer is bankrupt and can't warranty for the part. And they expect it'll take until at least August to repair all 120 cars if they have the parts to hurry. Massive triage of Amtrak and NJT equipment being triaged because they can't run any greater than a Saturday schedule on Regional Rail without the SLV's.


For T relevance, the FCMB's decision on the Rotem option order likely can't happen in the next 2 months now that the full extent of this debacle is known, it's unclear who is eating the costs, and it's unclear whether damages can or will be sought.

Send them the MBB cars with AEM7s from Amtrak.

sery2831 wrote:Send them the MBB cars with AEM7s from Amtrak.

AEM-7's are being looked at, though way too early to tell how fast they can be made operable. So are some NJT locos and loaner Arrows. Coaches I bet will tap MARC first (MARC IIA's are on retirement phase-out but haven't been pulled from service yet), then CDOT (has more Mafersas than Shore Line East needs). MBTA may not field any calls until mid or late in the week for that reason. Since there's no way the power can be scrambled by tomorrow--it's just not possible to inspect stored electrics, pick the best-condition ones, get the final headcount, and scramble them into service--SEPTA's in for a hellish week anyway. Power's top priority, otherwise number of coaches is a moot point.

The big question mark so far(at least for me) has been; is this a workmanship issue, an issue with the truck manufacturer's design or an issue with Hyundai's design. If it's the first then Hyundai is only minimally responsible for the issues, the second they're far more responsible but not 100%, and obviously if it's the latter they might as well close up shop.

Komarovsky wrote:The big question mark so far(at least for me) has been; is this a workmanship issue, an issue with the truck manufacturer's design or an issue with Hyundai's design. If it's the first then Hyundai is only minimally responsible for the issues, the second they're far more responsible but not 100%, and obviously if it's the latter they might as well close up shop.

Agree. Interesting that it's hard to tie it back to our common complaint of "poor investment in infrastructure" or deferred maintenance or deferred capital spending or some other systemic problem with rail transit systems.

Others have suggested part of the SEPTA - ROTEM root cause is the "buy american" mandate - locking us out of worldwide manufacturing industry with longer track record. I'm not sure about that in this case - the FRA requirements may have forced a foreign factory into a different design than they usually use, so who knows how that would play out.

Another item to add to your list is QC/QA (Quality Control / Quality Assurance). Who was responsible for what element of making sure things got done right? And what should the QC have looked like? What role should SEPTA have had in that process? Should some of the welds have been spot checked by xray or some other method? Were they?

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/0 ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Philadelphia transit system woes prompt MBTA inspections

...The MBTA purchased 75 Hyundai Rotem commuter rail coaches in 2008 for $190 million, but Pesaturo said they do not include the “equalizer beam” that is being inspected for cracks in Philadelphia.

“Nonetheless, out of an abundance of caution, the MBTA is performing truck inspections on two of the older coaches in the fleet to ensure there are no issues,” he wrote.

The older coaches were chosen for inspection because they have been used the most, according to the T...