Restoration of Routes 23 and 56

Hello, this is my first post here. I was looking at SEPTA's FY 2005-2016 Capital Program and it mentions restoring rail service and buying equipment for routes 23 and 56. Interesting since they have begun paving over the tracks on Torresdale Ave. If they can't seem to get route 15 together, I hate to think what restoring service on route 23 would be like. I was wondering if anyone else had read this and what they thought.

Route 23 at this point would be the easiest to restore, since most of the track is in fairly good shape and all the overhead still intact. Only thing that is missing is the cars.

I dont think we'll hear anything on this until SEPTA considers ordering more trolley cars, which isnt likely to happen. Its funny that buses can be ordered with no public discussion, but to order railcars or trolley cars, there has to be alot of discussion, debate, study and headache. Maybe when the Kawasaki's start showing their age they'll consider it. 56 is probablly a lost cause.

Too bad SEPTA didn't have all the PCC's restored for use on the 15 and 23. There are a few left at Midvale, but they're thet worst of them and only about 10 or 15 of them are there. During peak hours, the 23 demands 30 or 40+ cars because of its length and frequency. The 23 should have been done because its such a heavy line. The 15 was done because it was the easiest.

Route 15 is going to be a litmus test for the new rebuilt PCCs and for trolleys in North Philly. If the city likes it, then maybe the 23 will go ahead. There's a lot of uncertainty: the PCCs have all new electronic control systems, and the neighborhoods along the route have changed a few times since trolleys last ran the route.

The 23 has an advantage of running through Center City, where tourists will see it. The tracks in Center City for the 23 were recently rebuilt, but I have see the 23 tracks in North Philly around Temple, and there are sections that need to be replaced. The biggest problem for the 23 is its length and the narrow streets it runs in. One delayed trolley can propogate down the line and take hours for the schedule to return to normal.

I figure SEPTA projects have a tendency to be late starting and late finishing, so they might have paved over the tracks because they don't know how many years it will be before new tracks are installed for trolleys.

Lucius Kwok wrote:... SEPTA projects have a tendency to be late starting and late finishing ...

You are a master of understatement !

The trolley tracks for the 23 around 12th & Norris Streets at Temple are starting to get filled in with macadam. It would make sense to at least start out with a shorter route for the 23 that would include center city and maybe north to Germantown Ave and Broad Streets. I remember that the holiday trolley used a short loop through center city - maybe it went as far south as Lombard Street. I can't quite remember. The trolleys would help to boost tourism and could also be a draw for conventions - especially if the convention center is enlarged.
In addition, it would be a great idea to initiate a trolley loop through University City as well to include HUP and Drexel University since some of the tracks are already in place at least to the two portal entrances.
It's a real shame that SEPTA got rid of so many PCC trolleys. They seem to be a big success in SF. It's easy to be negative, but I hope that the PCC II trolley will start running soon along Girard Ave.

Speaking of disabled trolleys, I know that the K cars can be coupled together to tow a disabled car along the line. Will the PCC II cars have that feature, or could they do that before they were rebuilt?

R8FoxChase wrote:Hello, this is my first post here. I was looking at SEPTA's FY 2005-2016 Capital Program and it mentions restoring rail service and buying equipment for routes 23 and 56. Interesting since they have begun paving over the tracks on Torresdale Ave. If they can't seem to get route 15 together, I hate to think what restoring service on route 23 would be like. I was wondering if anyone else had read this and what they thought.

Highly doubtful on the 23. At best, you might see trolleys runs short-turns between Chestnut Hill and either Broad-Erie or Center City. I can't see trolleys heading south of Center City on the 23.

greg19051 wrote:Speaking of disabled trolleys, I know that the K cars can be coupled together to tow a disabled car along the line. Will the PCC II cars have that feature, or could they do that before they were rebuilt?

The original PCCs had drawbar connectors rather than couplers. I found some pix of 2320 that show the same kind of connector on the rear anticlimber.

http://www.phillytrolley.org/IMAGES/2320_091703_25.jpg

I can't imagine even SEPTA would forget to be able to connect 2 cars. Then again, there was the mess with the N-5 sanders that I mentioned in another post...

I think the 56 is done. No trolley line in Philly has ever come back from the dead (where tracks have been paved over and wires removed). Might as well focus all attention on the 23 now.

Whatever happened to the Chestnut Hill guys? Don't they push for restoration of trolley service anymore? Or did they finally make a hole in their drum?

I'm also suprised there is no outrage from trolley and railfan groups over the loss of the 56. I've seen nothing from the many websites and DVARP. You would think someone would have something to say.

JeffK wrote:
I can't imagine even SEPTA would forget to be able to connect 2 cars. Then again, there was the mess with the N-5 sanders that I mentioned in another post...

Historically, Philadelphia didn't do much, in the city, with multi car "train" operation of streetcars. During WWI, the Hog Island Cars (PRT 4000 class) were operated as MU trains from the Hog Island ship yard to 40th & Market Streets, but this lasted only until the ship yard was closed following the end of that War. Some of the same cars were operated as trains during WWII on the 79 slash ( later 79s) which ran from the Philadelphia Quartermaster Depot to the Navy Yard, but again, this was a wartime measure. Prior to 1920, there was some use of motor-trailer combinations, using 5000 series Hogs and converted older equipment, but this did not survive the 1920's ( the last trailer car was scrapped in 1923). Hence, by the time the PCC's arrived, the only reason to couple two units together was for towing purposes, hence the use of draw bars.

Thanks for the replies. I think it's safe to say that the 56 is not coming back, in fact it seems funny that SEPTA waits until now to suggest that it might. I can't imagine them starting up a trolley line after the tracks are paved over. The 23 would certainly be a good consideration though because of the tourists. I've had people from out of town ask about riding a trolley and not show much interest in the LRV's. The holiday trolley that ran from 12th and Noble to Bainbridge or Snyder back in 2000 did quite well as I remember. There's always a good turnout when there's a special event trolley such as the Black Friday trolley or Grandparent's day trolley that they had a couple years ago and I remember the Chestnut Hill Business Association had a trolley subcomittee so there seems to be support at that end as well. For now I'll guess we'll have to grateful if/when they ever get the 15 running. It was interesting to me to see the other two lines mentioned in their future planning though.

The problem with the 56 is that it's so far away from Center City and anywhere that tourists might use it. The 23 runs right through CC and 15 goes by the Zoo. (Maybe they should run a Zoo-CC trolley for the tourists.) But the 56 is all the way up in North Philly on Erie.

These restored PCC trolleys are really being run for the tourists. Look at San Francisco's F-line, which runs along Market St and up to Fisherman's Wharf. Like the cable cars, they're pretty popular with the tourists, and fun to ride. Los Angeles is looking to run some PCCs as well, again for tourism.

I say charge tourists $3 to ride the PCCs, and sell advertising aimed at tourists like the Las Vegas monorail, and it might work. The higher price will make tourists think it's some kind of special ride (I'm not kidding, people do think that way), and have it run from Penn's Landing to the Zoo, along Chestnut/Walnut, 11/12th Sts, and Girard Ave. You would be able to stop at Independence Hall, the convention center and its hotels, and a few other sights along the way.

Lucius Kwok wrote: The 23 runs right through CC

Here's a link to a photo of a Route 23 trolley on a charter trip in Center City taken from the aisle seat of the trolley itself. It was reflected in the windows of an office building:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/274 ... 4207IRElQC

Photographing trains and trolleys is not suspicious activity [this statement is placed here in an attempt to educate the fascist morons at NJTransit who think than banning photography of NJT trains, LRV's and buses will help make us safer from terrorism.]

Nice photo. Has it been two years since SEPTA ran trolleys on the CC tracks?

From what I heard, last year the holiday trolley only ran on Black Friday, and the cars were in such bad shape that people were dissapointed. The physical appearance was bad, the mechanical problems were insulting.