Railway Age Article on Penn Station

Here is a Railway Age article, part of a series, that explains the shortcomings of Gateway with respect to Penn Station.
Railway Age Penn Station Article Assuming this article is accurate, it tells us stuff I didn't realize, such as that the new tracks planned for Penn Station South will be separate stub end tracks. Presumably the new tunnels would be able to access Penn Station but the new tracks won't allow trains to go to Sunnyside. I don't know if they will allow connection to the Empire Tunnel.

The other problem is that Gateway does not have any plans for increasing the capacity of the current Penn Station, such as more escalators, improved corridor layout, etc

i've only read parts 5 and 6 of this series. In Part 6 the author claims that NY and NJ could do a much better job of getting Federal money by making various changes in their grant application processes. I have no idea if these criticisms are right or not.

There are several omissions from the article.
1. The new Gateway tunnels will access at least tracks 1 - 4 as the proposals we have seen.
2. The longer range plans have Penn South becomes a thru running station once the Manhattan water tunnel # 3 is completed and water tunnel 1 can be shut down and refurbished. That will allow the proposed East river tunnel bores 5 $& 6 to b connected to not only Penn south temporary stub tracks but NYP's present stub tracks 1 -4 . Granted that will occur long after most of us have taken that final train west as we all must expect..

The author is a member of the Lackawanna Coalition, an advocacy group for riders on the M&E line. Their big goal is to get direct M&E trains to the east side of Manhattan, specifically Grand Central. It is not unusual to hear from their communications calls for resurrecting Alt-G for connecting Penn Station to Grand Central. Unfortunately the time for that has passed. Within the last two decades it has become impossible to engineer any reasonably cost effective way to connect the two stations. Politically things have not gotten any easier either. It is worth noting that the New Jersey Rail Commuter Association disagrees with the Lackawanna Coalition on the majority of things related to the Gateway Project.

While many of the points that Mr. Alan had made in the series of articles that he has written on the Gateway project are correct, I personally fail to see a coherent realizable alternative emerge from his writings. For example, he is correct that for the time being Penn South will be stub ended, that most NJTransit trains will end up in Penn South, that the real estate needed for Penn South is terrifyingly expensive, that the existing Penn Station could use more vertical circulation (stairs and escalators), that a three track North Portal Bridge would have virtually guaranteed that South Portal Bridge never gets built (from a previous article in the series), etc. What exactly are the alternatives proposed in the article? A pie-in-the-sky Empire State Gateway bridge from Secaucus to Queens? Legthening two platforms so that longer trains can stop on tracks 1-4*? Faster turning of trains**? None of these gets the necessary capacity in and out of Manhattan.

*Lengthening of the platforms makes the tracks inaccessible from the existing North River Tunnels. They will be accessible from the Gateway Tunnels (if built).

**Regulations and union rules prevent much faster turning of trains. Ability to recover from delays also requires some padding. The comparison to the LIRR ability to run more trains during peak hour is incorrect as LIRR has 4 tracks going west into the West Side Yards. Amtrak and NJT have only two tracks going to Queens during rush hour because the other two tracks are used by LIRR to bring the west bond trains.

I don't think they are really shortcomings. According to track maps I've seen, the new tunnels will allow access to all tracks currently used by NJT and Amtrak. And while the new Penn South tracks are stubs, it's fine because NJT can lay up trains there during the day if not needed. Combined with the other stubs, this will allow NJT 11 tracks for its own use, freeing up other tracks for Amtrak, and keeping the crowds separate.

It is true, though, that Gateway is a track/capacity project. The Penn Station facility and its poor track access is a whole other issue with no concrete plan in place to address (though many proposals have been made).

Here are links to all the parts of the series for those interested:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6

I would be curious to know what "Regulations and union rules" cause it to take 28 minutes to unload, load and clear a track at NYP for Amtrak and NJT. Seems an awfully long time. Seems to me it would be worth looking into making better use of the existing facility before we spend a gazillion dollars on a new facility that apparently is inconveniently located for commuters and has poor subway connections.

A little clarification if I may.

The NJT only "Penn South", so deep below as to make the London Underground look like a "cut and cover", was scrapped by Gov. Christie, and was replaced by Gateway that will provide access to existing Penn from any of the "tubes".

Where have I misled myself; enquiring mind wants to know.

Gilbert, Penn South has nothing to do with Macy's Basement which was killed by Governor Christie. That would have been to the northeast north of track 21 and some dozens of feet deeper. Penn South is a proposal for tracks south of Track 1 and, possibly if I'm not mistaken, a lower level beneath tracks 1 - 4 or 1 - some higher number but accessible to the main waiting areas. Macy's Basement would have been accessible only through a new rabbit's warren of connecting passageways and completely isolated track wise. Penn South, whether just new platforms at the same level or a lower level of some sort will be using the same tunnels as Gateway and the rest of the complex.

In addition, "Macy's Basement" was north of Penn Station.

As others have pointed out Penn South isn't ideal, but will certainly help in the near future.

Where does the old post office building fit into all this? Is it above Penn South ?
I think we need some clever person to do a map .

The old Post Office is being made into a new station. it is above the west ends of the current station tracks and was used to send mail directly to the platforms. I believe it will be used by Amtrak. Since it is west of Penn Station it will, be a block longer walk to most subways.

Uhuh, Geographical south , rather than "track" south.
http://www.realtransit.org/htp10.php

"Penn South" is essentially part of the larger Gateway program. It's a plan to add 7 tracks south of the current "track 1," at approximately the same level. Basically making Penn Station a 28 track station. It does not include any lower level tracks. It's goal is to increase track capacity for New Jersey Transit. It would require the acquisition of real estate in the block south of Penn Station in order to open the ground up to expand the tracks south.

The ARC project - killed by Christie - was a plan to build two separate Hudson River tunnels that would only serve tracks under 34 Street, separate from Penn Station - for NJ Transit. The tunnels and tracks would be of no use for Amtrak, and provide no redundancy for the current tunnels.

Penn South would be built on the block bounded by 30th & 31st Streets and 7th & 8th Ave.

A good chunk of that block is already owned by Amtrak. As Manhattan RE goes, the rest would not be the most expensive acquisition. It's a mixture of low-rise 19th century tenements and small Class D office buildings from the 20s all with ground floor retail, including a couple not-great bars and (at least up until recently) a couple of "day spas" offering "massages." The Roman Catholic church of St. John the Baptist occupies a block-through lot close to 7th but the Archdiocese would undoubtedly take a check.

Emphasis, by the way, on "as Manhattan real estate goes." Compared to anywhere else in the US the price will be hefty.

jonnhrr wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:17 am I would be curious to know what "Regulations and union rules" cause it to take 28 minutes to unload, load and clear a track at NYP for Amtrak and NJT.

I do not know whether the average turn is 28 minutes as I have no way to check that claim. The standard practice for most runs on the dead-end tracks 1-4 is to have the train unload (~5+ minutes during rush hour), engage hand break, possibly check the train for sleeping passengers, close all doors, crew leaves, new crew arrives, open all doors, load (~10 minutes regardless of time of day), disengage break, wait for favourable signal, leave. For trains coming from Sunnyside the process is somewhat different, and probably somewhat faster.

Proper comparison for the turning time should be Metro-North turning trains at Grand Central. I do not believe Metro-North turns to be any faster than NJTs. The PATH and the subway turn trains much faster, but that is primarily because the same (!) crew just walks to the other end of the train while the passengers are unloading/loading and leaves within a few minutes.