QD 124 Derailment...and why is there NO notice in the media?

gp9rm4108 wrote:Here's the thing you all gotta understand. Today's rail industry is about making money ... thats it thats all nothing further needs to be said.

They will NOT fix ANYTHING unless it breaks and when they do fix it it will only be to minimum standards. Shareholders don't care about the trains derailing. The more a railroad can do for less the more the shareholders will cheer.

Today's railroads are not about moving freight. They are about making themselves and the shareholders money. The public and employees don't even exist as far as they are concerned. Why do you think working conditions are so deplorable?

More for less, more for less.

Of course it's about making money. That's what the business IS.

But a well-run business will make more money than a slipshod operation.

Derailments cost. Not maintaining equipment costs. Which saves an individual money: letting his house and car fall apart, or taking CARE of it?

Neglecting the property, home or railroad, is false economy...and COSTS in the end.

In the end, that was the difference between Conrail (and the old Southern) and this outfit. Conrail and Southern MADE MONEY by staying on top of things.

Cowford wrote:

They are ignorant when it comes to seeing trends

What trends are you referring to? That railroad accident rates have declined 70% in the last ~25 years and are at their lowest level ever in 2006?

If that is CSX's count, I'd double check that. If you recall, sir, there weren't too many profits posted by Class I's twenty-five years ago. You might also remember that some experts even predicted the demise of the entire rail mode back then. All was different. Technology has changed enough to allow a significant reduction in railroad crashes. (You call them accidents, but we all know accidents rarely occur. There is almost always a cause, usually an action or inaction of a human. Be real and call them trainwrecks.)

Today, with profits galore, growth beyond anyone's prediction, and the obvious need for more capacity and better customer service, the conscious decision to allow maintenance to be deferred, sometimes for YEARS, to the potential peril of the public, employees, and customers' goods, is so very near criminal that it has become the present focus of national attention. I wouldn't want my business run that way. I saw this over a year ago and have since divested myself of all CSX stock in both my 401k and the ESPP shares I had.

If any company begs re-regulation, today CSX is the one begging for it. If this management does not begin to perform responsibly, the shares will grow to be worthless.

I saw this over a year ago and have since divested myself of all CSX stock in both my 401k and the ESPP shares I had.

Uh oh... considering that CSX's stock has appreciated 35% in the last 12 months, I'm glad we differ in our viewpoints!

Tell you what, for those conspiracy theorists and CSX bashers who think that management in Jax jumps for joy every time a derailment occurs: produce some statistical evidence that backs your "trend." Especially you CSXers - remember one of your company's values? "Fact-based." My facts on safety come from the FRA and AAR. I look forward to it...

Stop reading last years reports and read the current FRA reports and new releases. FACT, over 3500 FRA safety violations/defects on CSX discovered after January and March inspections and investigations of CSX infastructure and operating practices. Congress is calling for congressional hearings regarding CSX's laxs safety issues. Your FACTs are last years. The AAR is nothing more than a national group of company reps., issuing forth the weighted propaganda that they wish to release. Enjoy your shares while they last. When CSX goes Enron, the light may go on. Of interest is Wall street analist are viewing CSX current stock activity as a prelude to a potential hostile take over. CSX has made it's own bed. We have only been discussing what we are seeing and experiencing. Maybe "trend" is not the proper wording here, maybe phase is a better choice.

While I admit there has been extreme success in generating profits recently, be aware that ALL the Class I's have been profitable, so the economic climate is right for that, it is not particularly any great skill on the part of CSX management. They just managed to not pi$$ away those profits like they used to do.

Seriously, if we can't be profitable now, we don't deserve to be in business. But, in the light of the windfall that has been bestowed upon us, good stewardship demands taking care of the tools, plant, and equipment we use to produce those profits....the improvements must be made when the cash exists to do so.

The investors are so far removed from things that they are only now realizing that the extreme profit trend really is "too good to be true" and that their business, their investment is now ready to show growth and expansion. We've all read that Wall Street is even getting on this bandwagon. Too bad CSX management will be the last to find a seat on the improve and grow bandwagon......BNSF and UP to a lesser degree have long known this.

The only reason that any of us are wasting time writing here is that we are weary of working for an employer that chooses treat us as liabilities rather than the SOURCE of their paychecks. We are weary of working for a truly second-rate outfit and genuinely fear for our lives at times due to the inept and arrogant management attitude and decisions about our property.....the property, tools and equipment we use everyday to produce that 1.4 billion profit each year.

Gotta go to work using some brokendown filthy 30 year old equipment that isn't even legally roadworthy (but hey, use it cuz it's all we HAVE!)

Cowford wrote:

I saw this over a year ago and have since divested myself of all CSX stock in both my 401k and the ESPP shares I had.

Uh oh... considering that CSX's stock has appreciated 35% in the last 12 months, I'm glad we differ in our viewpoints!

Tell you what, for those conspiracy theorists and CSX bashers who think that management in Jax jumps for joy every time a derailment occurs: produce some statistical evidence that backs your "trend." Especially you CSXers - remember one of your company's values? "Fact-based." My facts on safety come from the FRA and AAR. I look forward to it...

Hey, Dude....I'm no Einstein, and I don't bash CSX for the fun of it....they EARN every bit of what they get....but even a dummy like me can see how bad it's getting. I have even suspected the management has been filling its pockets in preparation for a hostile takeover bid where the stock price spikes, they dump their loads of shares and sell the company off in pieces to the highest bidders.

Can you admit that something like this COULD happen?

Wherre would you stand if such were to occur?

Just wondering.

I got my $37 a share...I'm satisfied. The hog that goes to the trough too many times usually gets slaughtered.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I guess when your sitting in the Emerald Tower it is easy to see only that limited view.

Can you admit that something like this COULD happen?

First of all, that's a leading question.... of course it COULD happen, just like a meteor hitting you tonight COULD happen.

To suggest CSX management is manipulating the stock or purposefully running the railroad into tatters for personal gain is to A) oversimplify the machinations of corporate America and B) give the CSX leadership too much credit for being able to rig the system.

First of all, the planning process for capital track improvements starts YEARS in advance. The company will only invest as much as the owners (the investment community) and lending institutions deem prudent... and it's largely based on forecasted earnings. Just as you wouldn't go out and get a flat-screen if you're in danger of losing your job, CSX must cut back on capital projects in the face of a soft market. CSX's capital investment has continued to increase- not decrease- since 2004 in the face of improved earnings.

The FRA investigation is a political witch-hunt that you see from time-to-time. As you must know, the FRA conducts inspections on an ongoing basis. 3,500 defects? First of all, that's a data point, not a trend. Secondly, is 3,500 over the system good or bad? Seriously. I am not minimizing the discovery of defects, but a close, in-depth inspection is going to reveal stuff like this, many of which are quite minor. Fewer than 200 are being considered by FRA for fine. The FRA-reported TREND is interesting: track-caused train accidents on CSX in NY have DECLINED 67 percent between 2004 and 2006. And CSX's system accidents dropped 24% last year.

Funny how the folks in the "Emerald Tower" can't see out, but those in the field can see in with perfect vision... must be the glass or something. Oh well, at least the "from the inside" view includes the occasional FEC drag rumbling over the St Johns!

OK, we can talk about this and we can talk about that, but the fact remains that when someone conveniently posted that certain CSX management divested shares at a high sales point, then the price went down, I said to myself "DAMN! I missed the peak." So didn't sell the stock. Months later there appeared another such clipping on the Bulletin Board at Frontier. Certain people were selling large blocks of stock. I don't know who they were, directors, v.p.'s, whatever. All I know is I went home and SOLD and it was at a high point that endured for several months! Coincidence...maybe.

Now on the roads in question: One of these had a 40 mph temporary speed restriction on it for about a year. The restriction came off for a few days and went back on again for another year! We were about to make a birthday cake for that speed restriction.

Big deal, you might say. OK...no big deal...except for the fact that every train had to slow down for that TSR....50-60-70 or more trains a DAY!! So. So that spot happens to be at the bottom of a short, quick rise to the west. It's about three miles to the top of the rise going west. Travelling east there is a hill about eight miles long that is probably the ruling grade on the Lakeshore Subdivision. For some 700+ days trains had to slow coming downhill for a relatively minor TSR and RE-accelerate to try to regain track speed.

Let's do some math. Say we just averaged 60 trains a day through there. And suppose that TSR was on for 725 days. That's 43,500 restricted train movements at that single road crossing. So what? Well, let's pick a number. We'll pick one because we don't have any idea how else to figure this out, but it'll be a very conservative number, so we will look like we're trying to be fair.

How about $50. Yes, $50 increased cost to slow down and re-accelerate for , no not each engine used, but just for each train. For each train having to re-accelerate we will use the added cost of just $50. That sounds pretty reasonable, doesn't it. Now I'm just a country bumpkin here, so stop me any time you think I am being unreasonable, OK? We're going to say it MIGHT cost CSX as much as $50 per train to reaccelerate back up to track speed after encountering this one TSR in place for two years at Irving, NY.

So, we have the $50 times how many trains? Oh, yes, that number we had before...what was it? Oh yes, just look above there...43,500. Yeah, I've fooled around here acting like a jerk and you've already figured it out, huh?

That's right....that one TSR cost a minimum of $2,175,000.00 and probably much, much more. But because it wasn't "in the budget" the Emerald Tower Brain Trust pi$$ed away several million dollars on a SINGLE slightly out of whack road crossing at grade. One SMALL example, one LARGE result.

That's why I do not believe anything management says when it comes to money matters. If it had cost them $175,000 to rebuild that crossing completely (signals and all), they would stil;l have $2,000,000.00 to fix, uh, CP 128, CP 124, CP 58, CP 362, CP 2,3,15,23,31,37,39, 42,47,49,73,83,85,89, and 97 just on the Lakeshore Subdivision alone. Because, you see, once these faults are repaired and trains no longer have to change their speed and consume more fuel, there will be even MORE money left over to fix even more track and when the derailments DON'T HAPPEN there is even more $$$$$ saved and on and on.

See how successful management works? You do your job, do what is right, and eventually it PAYS benefits that you can't get otherwise! And, if all works as planned, you make some money for the investor too. Remember him, the investor?

Well, investing is a act of risk taking. And the risk is that you might not get your quarterly dividend. That's why you invest. If you wanted a sure thing you'd buy a CD. But investments don't always pay off and it takes money to make money. Just imagine how soon we'd be out of business if we started paying our fuel bills late.

End of Rant...I'm tired and have to go to bed.

Muddy...you make more sense dead-tired than Ingram makes with all his consultants there to do his thinking for him.

Excellent summation. Excellent model of how keeping the physical plant up, saves.

It is strange that NS, BNSF, UP, CN, and CP all seem to get that preventive maintainance part of it but CSX is too interested in the up front cash in hand. I guess as we have all said before, The One thing we can all agree upon is to disagree. I also find it odd that first FRA records are qouted, then the new reports are refered to as Political "witch hunt". Maybe it is a Witch hunt. But when the witch doesn't mind her business, others (citizens, employees, politicians) are forced to take the Witch to task. I and a number of us have all seen derailment costs, maniplulated, hidden, and down right covered, to prevent FRA reporting. Why, local and mid level managers are also held accountable and most what to keep their jobs as well. The 26% drop in accidents from 2004-2006 is a fair amount of smoke and mirrors. Problem is now the smoke is getting thin.

To address the latest response first, I used "witch hunt" because the investigation was prompted by politicians who don't know a rail anchor from a boat anchor, not the FRA. And yeah, some accident "hiding" takes place... not saying it's right but it's not fair to imply this as a CSX or CSX-management only problem. How many T&E employees reading this can say with absolute honesty that they have never violated a rule or seen fellow workers violate rules, but not report them?

To Muddy's post - now you're talking my language! That is a very logical approach to determining the cost of slow orders. Not sure of the length of the TSR in question... you'd have to figure in delay in minutes and then crew cost (about $1.50-$2.00/minute), incremental brake shoe wear, fuel consumption (if any), car-hire, and locomotive cost (~$.35 per loco-minute?). Interesting exercise. I've seen some stats in the past on slow-order costs, but not sure how they were calculated.

I find it odd, the only language you understand is the numbers, and costs? All these issues have no meaning because you can't put a dollar amount on them? That's the mentality I expected, thankyou.

You're welcome.

Let me provide some additional facts, since that's "the only language I understand:"

* Of the 8 incidents which evidently prompted the investigation, at least 3 can be traced to rules violations
* Of the violations the FRA cited in NY, NONE was related to track
* The defects and violations listed by the FRA included:
misuse of radio communications (apparently not properly ID'ing oneself);
not checking switch points after throwing a switch;
missing hazmat placard;
maintaining hazmat positions in a train;
failure of a train crew to have hazmat paperwork;
failure to find noncompliant conditions in a brake test;
cars on mainline without handbrakes tied down;
mechanical forces working with no blue flag protection

I'm going to guess that the company ensured that those operating employees involved were properly trained in stuff like tying down equipment with handbrakes and using blue flag protection. Listen, I'm not gunning for the T&E employees; like CSX managers, the vast majority are hard-working, conscientious folks who want to do the best job possible.... just reacting to sweeping critical statements that implicate everyone but the agreement employee. To repeat the cliche, "Safety is EVERYONE'S Job" and improvement is needed by EVERYONE.

excuse me while I contented your info. The FRA investigation specifically stated Broken/defective rail, Loose or missing bolts, Ties not supporting the rail, 1 incident of not checking switch points, and Brake rigging not properly secured. This info. has been released to the media by the FRA and posted in Albany, Times Union, Syracuse, Post standard, and the Buffalo Sunday newspaper. Now I know your going to accuse the papers of exagerating said reports. But the Info. is directly from the FRA. The Onieda wreck, was determined to be Broken rail by NTSB. The East Rochester Wreck, again, broken rail. Buffalo, Union road overpass, Broken switch frog. Churchville, wheel failure. The FRA investigation/inspections were triggered by public outcry after the East Rochester, and Buffalo incidents. And lets not forget the Ohio incidents, Ashtebulla, Broken rail, I forget the city in Ohio, where a train derailed at a grade crossing striking another train and injuring several citizens waiting in vehicles at a crossing. Chain dragging from car snagged switch handle. I do not understand but for some reason your info. is in conflict with the FRA press releases. No body is perfect and your absolutely right safety is all of our concern. In the past 2 weeks the FRA telemetry car, Sperry, and CSX telemetry car have made numerous passes since the Onieda crash/explosion and have posted an additional 80 TSR's from Selkirk tro Cleveland. At one point last week Buffalo to Cleveland (176 miles) had 47 TSR, Buffalo to Syracuse 153 miles, was up to 42, (from 22), plus 10 more on the west Shore Sub (from 5 before) (20 mile Rochester bypass), Syracuse to Selkirk 146 miles went to 23 (from 4)
To say track/rail conditions had no part in any of the recent NY events is absolutely false. NTSB and FRA reports specifically determined causes stated above. At this point I'm departing from this discussion. Push the Company propaganda all you want. I'll take the FRA and NTSB stats anytime.