Railroad Forums 

  • Proposed Federal regulation of Light Rail and Subway systems

  • General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.
General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

Moderators: mtuandrew, gprimr1

 #738365  by mtuandrew
 
Administration to Propose Federal Oversight of Subways, Report Says by FOX News

The Washington Post reports that the Obama administration wants the federal government to oversee subway and light-rail systems.

In the wake of last summer's deadly Metro crash in Washington, D.C., the Obama administration reportedly plans to propose that subway and light-rail systems across the country fall under federal oversight.

The pitch comes as the administration moves to increase regulation over the financial, auto, health care and industrial sectors.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11 ... itics%2529


Moderator's Note: Please keep the discussion limited to the benefits or problems associated with Federal regulation of FRA exempted rail transit. Broad generalizations about the Obama administration or those prior will not be tolerated.
 #738372  by gt7348b
 
I think it is fine as long as they recognize and help pay for any improvements they begin to require to meet any new regulatory burdens they place on operating systems. For example, if they make all the HRT systems upgrade their signal systems, then they should help pay for that operating and not just require us to pay for it out of the existing 5309 fixed guideway modernization funding. Those funds for the foreseeable future should already be programmed for other needed safety and regulatory requirements.

So in short, I'll at least take a "wait and see" approach and press for this to be coupled with additional federal funding to support any new requirements.
 #738382  by DutchRailnut
 
lets be fair, the FAA controls all airplanes, not just commercial right ?? no sepperate rules for light non comercial planes.
So why should transit be excluded from Federal control, no rules, no guidelines, no standards.
This has been issue with several accidents in NY subway, Washington Metro , Boston's light rail etc.
 #738554  by SemperFidelis
 
DutchRailnut wrote:lets be fair, the FAA controls all airplanes, not just commercial right ?? no sepperate rules for light non comercial planes.
So why should transit be excluded from Federal control, no rules, no guidelines, no standards.
This has been issue with several accidents in NY subway, Washington Metro , Boston's light rail etc.
As a pilot and a railfan, I agree with this statement. FAA controls almost everything in the skies.

A possible benefit would be that with federal control over all systems the requirement to have the systems physically seperated from the national rail system might no longer be.

Possible drawback is that the FRA's focus on crash survival vs. crash avoidance might cause light rail and subway vehicles to become heavier.

Also, what about trolley lines like SEPTA's streetcars? Will operators of light rail vehicles, trolleys, and subways be required to receive better training?
 #738673  by Sand Box John
 
Federal oversight of subways proposed
Red Line crash spurred safety plan Obama administration to push for Congress to change law

By Joe Stephens and Lena H. Sun
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, November 15, 2009

Story mentioned in fourth from last paragraph in above article:
Metro barred safety checks on tracks, data show
Workers Deaths At Issue
Agency disputes inspectors' account

By Joe Stephens and Lena H. Sun
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, November 9, 2009

Moderator's Note: Merged into existing topic, Nov. 16, 2009
 #739214  by Batman2
 
"After the [Metro] train crash, we were all sitting around here scratching our heads, saying, 'Hey, we've got to do something about this.' And we discovered that there's not much we could do, because the law wouldn't allow us to do it."

Something tells me that when the politicians themselves are admitting that the policy is based on the reasoning "well, we need to do something" it's not a good idea.

I'm not in favor of the idea since there's no way to rationalize the mass transit system in the US without forcing massive costs. Different equipment standards, operating methods, training, etc. all mean that any "effective" federal regulation would force mas transit systems to restructure. Either that, or the "regulations" would be ineffective at best since they would be based around trying to not impose massive costs.
 #739573  by Passenger
 
One thing is not clear. Is it simply extending existing railroad regulations to mass transit, or creating new federal regulations specifically for mass transit?

Also, with or without a new bureaucracy? I have noticed a tendency to create new bureaucracies where all that is needed is new regulations.
 #739634  by electricron
 
Batman2 wrote:"After the [Metro] train crash, we were all sitting around here scratching our heads, saying, 'Hey, we've got to do something about this.' And we discovered that there's not much we could do, because the law wouldn't allow us to do it."
I'm not in favor of the idea since there's no way to rationalize the mass transit system in the US without forcing massive costs. Either that, or the "regulations" would be ineffective at best since they would be based around trying to not impose massive costs.
I completely agree with you. Look at FRA's slow adoption of "Positive Train Control" due to costs associated with it. Yet, just about every other country in the world with passenger trains have it already.

Having a set of Federal Regulations for transit doesn't guarantee there will be more safety on America's rails.

What really needs to be closely watched across America is how well the transit agencies maintained their systems. It's easy for NTSB to suggest expensive solutions to a problem without having to pay for them. They're like back seat drivers, all talk with no responsibility.
If DC Metro needs to retire half their cars early for safety reasons, where was the Federal money needed to replace them? Does the NTSB have any financial resources it can pass around where needed? I don't think so........and that's just one reason why and where the NTSB needs new responsibilities........
We don't need new regulations, what's needed is Federal resources for money for real safety programs.
 #739688  by Batman2
 
electricron wrote:
Batman2 wrote:"After the [Metro] train crash, we were all sitting around here scratching our heads, saying, 'Hey, we've got to do something about this.' And we discovered that there's not much we could do, because the law wouldn't allow us to do it."
I'm not in favor of the idea since there's no way to rationalize the mass transit system in the US without forcing massive costs. Either that, or the "regulations" would be ineffective at best since they would be based around trying to not impose massive costs.
I completely agree with you. Look at FRA's slow adoption of "Positive Train Control" due to costs associated with it. Yet, just about every other country in the world with passenger trains have it already.

Having a set of Federal Regulations for transit doesn't guarantee there will be more safety on America's rails.

What really needs to be closely watched across America is how well the transit agencies maintained their systems. It's easy for NTSB to suggest expensive solutions to a problem without having to pay for them. They're like back seat drivers, all talk with no responsibility.
If DC Metro needs to retire half their cars early for safety reasons, where was the Federal money needed to replace them? Does the NTSB have any financial resources it can pass around where needed? I don't think so........and that's just one reason why and where the NTSB needs new responsibilities........
We don't need new regulations, what's needed is Federal resources for money for real safety programs.
Don't worry, with no responsibility comes no power; NTSB recommendations are usually very limited in scope and serve almost exclusively as fodder for news stories about "who's to blame for [insert event]?" and for deciding liability (and even then they usually spread that around, leading to diffused impacts for each involved party). Considering how many variables are non-standard, there's really not a lot they can do. Think about just a few safety issues: Track gauge, platform height, emergency exits (tunnel and bridge exists, emergency doors, etc.), seating layout, design details (exit signs, warning info, location, labeling, and availability of emergency brakes, etc.), and exterior safety issues such as platform design, signage, and warning devices.

Additionally, more complex questions such as train operation are definitely NOT standard. As far as I know, there are no less than 5 systems for train operation: manual, automatic with a limited manual override (driver can operate cars in a limited fashion that would be prohibitive for normal operation), manual with automatic override (ATP, PTC, etc.), automatic with no driver/engineer/operator, and automatic or manual (such as on the DC Metro).
 #743078  by neroden
 
Batman2 wrote:"After the [Metro] train crash, we were all sitting around here scratching our heads, saying, 'Hey, we've got to do something about this.' And we discovered that there's not much we could do, because the law wouldn't allow us to do it."
This was a weirdly ignorant statement. The federal government has direct authority to legislate for the District of Columbia, where Metro mostly is....
 #744201  by Batman2
 
neroden wrote:
Batman2 wrote:"After the [Metro] train crash, we were all sitting around here scratching our heads, saying, 'Hey, we've got to do something about this.' And we discovered that there's not much we could do, because the law wouldn't allow us to do it."
This was a weirdly ignorant statement. The federal government has direct authority to legislate for the District of Columbia, where Metro mostly is....
You know, I hadn't noticed that. I was too busy looking at the blatant "well we have to do something" sentiment, but you have a good point there.
 #746757  by Sand Box John
 
White House seeks federal oversight of rail-transit safety
Transportation chief details plan in wake of high-profile accidents

By Joe Stephens and Lena H. Sun
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, December 9, 2009

United States Department of Transportation Press Release:
U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood Proposes Legislation to Improve Rail Transit Safety Oversight

DOT 193-09
Tuesday, December 8, 2009
Contact: Paul Griffo
Tel: 202-366-4064

Draft of Public Transportation Safety Program Act of 2009 (738 KB PDF file)
 #754847  by Batman2
 
jb9152 wrote:
R36 Combine Coach wrote:Anything self-propelled and running on rails should be considered FRA standard.
That's going to be tough when not ONE rail transit vehicle is currently FRA-compliant.
R36 is saying said rolling stock should be deemed FRA-compliant. I'd be worried about some pretty low standards emerging from that kind of a standard. I foresee some very spartan concept vehicles arising from such a ruling.