Privatizing SEPTA

Yet when things go wrong, there is no one to shake a stick at. The front line people (conductors, ticket agents, station masters, drivers) have very little interest in providing good service, they do their 8-12 hour shift and go home. There are many who go above and beyond, but they dont always receive the recognition they deserve because its expected that's they perform that way.

Perfect example: Ask someone at SEPTA what is being done to start Rt 15 trolley service, I'd be willing to bet whoever you get on the phone will know nothing at all.

walt wrote: The only people that private businesses are accountable to is their stockholders. And this "accountability" is usually takes the form of making a profit, or at least not taking unreasonable losses. In the mass transportation of passengers, this works against the interests of the riding public ...

Well the circumstances are a lot different now than the time you cite. Most importantly, in present-day privatization of transit services, the government agency is still in charge of policy decisions including level of service and fares. And it isn't the stockholders who are putting up the capital, it's the government.

The manager of the privatized service is still accountable to his stockholders, but the way he makes a profit for them is by fulfilling the contract with the transit agency without blowing the budget.* If the company does a poor job managing the service and loses the contract at the next go-round (see various examples in Britain), the stockholders will want to oust the manager.

So the management is accountable to the agency (for fulfilling the contract and not generating complaints) as well as to the stockholders. Fifty years ago, when transit was still owned by the private sector, the public had no leverage. Now that the government controls the pursestrings, they have plenty.

One of the selling points in favor of the creation of Septa ( in addition to the problem of the bi-annual PTC strikes) was this issue of accountablility. The PTC appeared to be accountable to no one, and it was felt, obviously erroneously, that a public agency would have a greater public accountability.

Well, it could if the [blasphemy] city government and the rest of the people of influence in the city (starting with the editorial board of the Philadelphia Inquirer) would demand said accountability.

*--Sometimes the best decision by the private operator is to walk away if it looks like the company wouldn't be able to make a satisfactory profit without undue risk (see Amtrak walking away from the Boston commuter rail contract [well, they got pushed away too]). That actually puts some checks and balances in the system, since if the agency isn't willing to put up enough money for the service to be run properly, nobody's going to be willing to run it and they'll have to bump up funding to get takers (dont'cha love that invisible hand?).

Matthew Mitchell wrote:
Well the circumstances are a lot different now than the time you cite. Most importantly, in present-day privatization of transit services, the government agency is still in charge of policy decisions including level of service and fares. And it isn't the stockholders who are putting up the capital, it's the government.

Then you really don't have "privatization" in the classic sense. I work with a situation in which a private entity is providing a government funded service, and from what I have seen, there is no real advantage of having the private entity providing the service instead of government employees. What you lose in all of this, because you are dealing with contract compensation of the private entity, is the incentive to "make a better product" that comes from the situation where the level of profits earned is determined by how well the company performs. Companies that provide contracted ( or "privatized") goverment services have no real incentive to do anything more than to meet the terms of the contract, because services do not generate profits. And, in today's world, mass public transportation of passengers IS a service. In the case of a privatized Septa, there would be no real incentive for the private operator to do anything more than operate on time, and provide what services are called for in the contract. ( which, admittedly, might be an improvement over the current situation) Adding services, or providing "luxury" type services, in today's transportation world, would not generate enough additional funds to be worth doing for an entity whose profits are limited by a contract price. If the government is still going to be required to fund or subsidize the operation, you will still have the problem of convincing the government to adequately fund the services---- just like Amtrak, or Septa, or WMATA, etc. etc. etc. As long as it is not possible for public passenger transportation to pay for itself out of the fare box, privatization is not the panacea it may first appear to be.

walt wrote: Then you really don't have "privatization" in the classic sense. I work with a situation in which a private entity is providing a government funded service, and from what I have seen, there is no real advantage of having the private entity providing the service instead of government employees.

Well as I said earlier in the thread, there are advantages such as securing contract changes that can reduce costs and/or increase service provided, and making it easier to tie pay to performance and remove ineffective personnel (operating or management). In short: it's about making the operation less bureaucratic.

What you lose in all of this, because you are dealing with contract compensation of the private entity, is the incentive to "make a better product" that comes from the situation where the level of profits earned is determined by how well the company performs. Companies that provide contracted ( or "privatized") goverment services have no real incentive to do anything more than to meet the terms of the contract, because services do not generate profits.

Sure they can: you can put incentive clauses in the contract for anything you want, starting with on-time performance and increasing customer satisfaction scores. It ties the operator's profit directly to the quality of service.

And, in today's world, mass public transportation of passengers IS a service. In the case of a privatized Septa, there would be no real incentive for the private operator to do anything more than operate on time, and provide what services are called for in the contract. ( which, admittedly, might be an improvement over the current situation)
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Is there any incentive under the status quo for anybody to even operate on time???

If Septa wanted to save some money and act responsibly, they would eliminated the person who does the announcements at 30th st.

There is an electronic system which is supposed to announce over the PA and display on LED boards the status of arriving trains. For some reason, they don't use this. The boards are often incorrect.

I have noticed the announcer doesnt even know what train is coming. He has to use a pair of binoculars to check and make an announcement. At the same time there is an order runner there (even an 11PM). You certainly dont need two people for those jobs at that hour.

If I were king, I would have the announcments all all CC stations made over the PA by dispatchers in Septa's control tower. No reason to have someone on sight, especially when he does such a poor job with annoucements anyway. The would eliminate about 6 jobs.

Also, instead of having its own transit police dept, SEPTA would contract with the city to hire PPD officers to work transit beats; saving the overhead of a separate radio system, command structure, etc. No security would be provided to suburban locations.

Trains would not sit at the end of the line for more than 5-10 minutes. Just a big enough window to buffer against any delays. No sense in having expensive equipment just sitting there.

flynnt wrote:If Septa wanted to save some money and act responsibly, they would eliminated the person who does the announcements at 30th st.

There is an electronic system which is supposed to announce over the PA and display on LED boards the status of arriving trains. For some reason, they don't use this. The boards are often incorrect.

The boards are often not working. I'm not sure what the problem is, but it seems like they frequently have a few boards not turned on (particularly on Track 1), or all the boards reading "12:00". Even when the boards are working, the annunciator system doesn't seem to trigger half the time, or it goes off early (like before on-time trains arrive). I haven't noticed this nearly as much at Market East, and it'll be interesting to see what happens when they start using the new boards at Suburban.

I have noticed the announcer doesnt even know what train is coming. He has to use a pair of binoculars to check and make an announcement. At the same time there is an order runner there (even an 11PM). You certainly dont need two people for those jobs at that hour.

The person is usually over on the outbound platform (Tracks 3 and 4), so I'm not surprised they use binoculars (though I've never seen this myself), particularly since late at night they're making announcements for all trains coming and going from 30th Street. As for the runner, I'm surprised there isn't a better way for SEPTA to communicate this stuff to their trains. And again, if the announcer is over on the outbound platform, how's he going to get orders to trains traveling outbound via the center platform?

If I were king, I would have the announcments all all CC stations made over the PA by dispatchers in Septa's control tower. No reason to have someone on sight, especially when he does such a poor job with annoucements anyway. The would eliminate about 6 jobs.

For some reason, I don't find the idea of this being relegated to the folks in their control center (whatever it's called) to be very reassuring. Their big control center certainly hasn't helped much with improving on-time performance or anything else with the Regional Rail.

Its things like the announcer system not working that should be reason enough for people losing their jobs downtown. I love how when things dont work after tons of money being spent on it, no one gets upset.

I love how the system at market east announces that the train is "next to arrive" as the train is pulling out. I observed that several times when the Airport train, of all trains to do that for.

For some reason, I don't find the idea of this being relegated to the folks in their control center (whatever it's called) to be very reassuring. Their big control center certainly hasn't helped much with improving on-time performance or anything else with the Regional Rail.

I agree that having it run by a central location might not make it any better. But if the system stays the same, it definitely wont get any better. As it is now, the announcer only actually knows when a train is arriving based on a visual confirmation. Presumably SEPTA's tower has the most up to date info on the status of a train (on-time/5 mins late/ arriving) based on what block the train is in. This central control would be able to say "R5 Lansdale Local now arriving" before the train is visible to the station. It seems horribly ineficient to have the announer (1) constantly on the look out for a train (2) aware of delays only when SEPTA's tower tells him. At least someone in SEPTA's tower would be able to give up-to the minute info.

Of course, it should really all be automated, and if SEPTA were a for-profit entity, it would not accept the condition the automated system is now in. They wouldnt have paid for it if it wasnt working at delivery, and if it stopped working after deliver the would keep calling whoever built/installed it until it works right all the time.

Mr. Flynt I'm going to have to disagree with you in regards to cutting jobs. The only jobs that should be cut from SEPTA are the jobs located @ 1234 Market Street in the cooperate office.

Everyone's solution is to lay people off & unemployment is constantly on the rise everyday, but no jobs are being created for these workers.

I am tired of everything being automated, because mostly 85% of anything that SEPTA uses in automated form does not work properly, from the message boards, to the elevators, escalators (sp), web site, to the phone system when you try to find out what time your next bus or train leaves.

I personally think computer technology is not good in all cases when it comes to the railroad industry. Slashing jobs will not help SEPTA if you do not get rid of the big wigs in 1234 Market Street.

Everything about SEPTA sucks even their transit musuem store. These people make they're own darn hours, know nothing about trains & are clueless to anything about trains, oh i could go on but i won't.

Case in point 1234 MARKET Street needs to go if you ever want any improvements made to SEPTA.

If i had it my way i'd phase the commuter rail system into New Jersey Transits. If you go back into history they're transit system was in dismay just like ours & look @ them now. SEPTA should have followed in they're example.

Another thing SEPTA spends more time making excuses than they do correcting the problems & sometimes they don't even bother to comment on the mistakes they've made.

Also they focus on attacking toy companies such as Bachamn with law suits for producing anything with their name on it, but they should be happy that anyone would want to make something with the SEPTA logo on there since they're service sucks big time...... Stop worrying about your logos IDIOTS, worry about the piss poor service your providing to your few remaining passengers that you have left.

Oh what were we talking about again....

SEPTA wouldn't neccessarily eliminate jobs, just "positions" the people who are currently announcers would be moved to a different position.

However, if SEPTA were a private company, they almost certainly would elimate both the position and the jobs, either by attrition or layoffs.

I agree there are big problems at 1234 Market Street.

As far as the transit museum, if it didn't turn a profit, I'm sure it would be gone under a for-profit firm.

What could SEPTA do to improve the museum now? Keep a small core of fulltime employees (1,2 or 3 should do it). The fill in the gaps with railfans who would volunteer at the store in exchange for some kind of non-cash benefit...(free/discouted railpass, disounted merchandise, something along those lines). You would reduce employee overhead while at the same time getting more knowledgeable employees. And you know what...it will never happen.

Has anyone actually used a spreadsheet and run the numbers to see what kind of fares and what kind of expenses are involved? Without thees kinds of estimates, I don't think anyone has the basis to make any claims. You would want to use actual numbers if possible. I've tried to find SEPTA's annual reports and found them very lacking in specific information. Where is the independent auditer who can give an objective analysis of SEPTA? Without this kind of reporting, SEPTA has no accountability. And even if we knew they were inefficient, what recourse do the five counties and their citzens have? If we cut funding to SEPTA, the management threatens to cut services and increase fares until they get the money, but if we increase funding, there's no incentive to improve efficency and productivity, but it gets absorbed in their budgets.

Ultimately, the five counties in SEPTA's service area lose out because residents and businesses currently here give up and move away, and new residents and businesses decide not to move here because of the sorry state of transportation. (There's also the lack of runway capacity at PHL airport and very congested Schuylkill Expressway.)

Mass transit is part of the infrastructure of a city, like roads, sewers, and water supply. You could privatize it, which can improve its accountability, but it's ultimately a public good whose goal is to improve the standard of living for the metro area as a whole, rather than as a company making profits for itself.

There is a form of public transportation that is private: Taxis and Limos. I think you know how much those cost to ride.

Something I found interesting while looking at the history of the various rail lines in Philadelphia is that most lines were either never profitable or barely profitable by themselves. The P&W line to Strafford never had much ridership, and it wasn't until they connected to Norristown and the Lehigh Valley interurban that they turned a profit. The PRR Norristown line was built to spite the Reading line, not because it was a money-maker.

Lucius Kwok wrote:There is a form of public transportation that is private: Taxis and Limos. I think you know how much those cost to ride.

I agree that mass transit should not be privatized, but this is a very unfair comparison. Taxis and limos carry 1 or 2 people, generally (sometimes more, but usually not many), whereas a bus will carry 50. A full taxi, then, must charge more per person to recoup costs that a full bus can charge because of the economy of scale. You'd be better comparing apples to apples, like SEPTA to Krapf's... and with that comparison I want to march on down to 1234 Market, shake the hand of every bigwig that works there, and thank them for being so efficient!

The PRR Norristown line was built to spite the Reading line, not because it was a money-maker.

The PRR did seem to have some sort of unnatural and unhealthy obsession with the Reading Railroad, especially given the fact that the RDG was never truly as powerful a competitor as many RRs... other than the obvious of being based in the same city, does anyone know why this was?

My suspicion was the PRR's megalomania. After all, look how viciously they went after the B&O in Philly as well (who used the Reading lines to compete with the PRR)—used to be that NY-Washington travel was a big chunk of the passenger biz.

PRR went after anyone it felt would be competition, no matter how small they were. When the pre- A. Merritt Taylor Philadelphia & West Chester Traction Co. ( Red Arrow predecessor) was attempting to construct its original line to West Chester, it had a major battle ( which included gangs of armed workers) when it attempted to install the crossing of the PRR Newtown Square branch at Llanerch.. This resulted in pitched battles at the crossing, arrests, injunctions, counter injunctions etc. etc. etc. for more than one year, before the P&WCT was finally able to install the crossing and provide electric service west of Llanerch.---- PRR was, in many ways, a bully.

Umblehoon wrote:I agree that mass transit should not be privatized, but this is a very unfair comparison. Taxis and limos carry 1 or 2 people, generally (sometimes more, but usually not many), whereas a bus will carry 50. A full taxi, then, must charge more per person to recoup costs that a full bus can charge because of the economy of scale. You'd be better comparing apples to apples, like SEPTA to Krapf's... and with that comparison I want to march on down to 1234 Market, shake the hand of every bigwig that works there, and thank them for being so efficient!

Yes, there are economies of scale. Maybe a better comparison would be the buses that run between Chinatowns in NYC and Philly. They cost about $20 round trip or $12 each way for a 2-hour ride.

Another one is the SFO Airporter, which runs between downtown hotels in SF and the airport. Fares are about $14. It seems that fares would need to be above $10 in order to pay both operating costs and capital costs, and still have a profit to cover contingencies.