So Much for the R8 Fox Chase

I just rode the line and to my horror I discovered that they are indeed going ahead with the single tracking project. Passing sidings are being built at Netown and Cheltenham Jcts and CSX already has a bagged "darth vader" block signal to step in when CP-Cheltenham Jct is taken out of service.

When this happens it will be a sad day. The reduction in capacity will probably put the skids on any expansion to Newtown. Moreover, the Fox chase line is a fine example of main-line track with a lot of unique catenary structure on it. It will be a cold day in hell before CSX would ever allow SEPTA back onto its line no matter now dire the circumstances. When SEPTA gets hit with the enevitable delays associated with passing siding operation there will be no option left to them.

The R8's days are probablly numbered anyway, like the Cynwyd dinky. Its too short to be meaningful to SEPTA. Single tracking shouldn't rule out Newtown service, depending on how that's done. If its diesel, terminiating diesels at Fox Chase shouldn't affect headways.

Doesen't CSX operate over SEPTA owend track? If SEPTA wanted to stick it to them, they could increase their fees or make life difficult for CSX some other way.

This is another fine example of how our current railroad system doesen't work. Freight and passenger ops shouldn't be fighting each other.

When I go to PHL next Monday, I will go out to Fox Chase. Yes, they need to extend the service above Fox Chase. The station is literally above the Philly city limits. I believe the row is still in place north of fox.

There really is no reduction in capacity in the line. If you look at the current timetable, you'll see all trains are already scheduled to pass around Lawndale (just south of Cheltenham Jct).

Its really not that big of a deal, the branch is short enough that it simply doesn't take that long for a train to traverse it.

Joe Wagner

I think this line could use two tracks instead of a single track..everytime i pass the RYERS STATION the stop before FOX CHASE and RYERS is over busy Cottman Avenue with the cars,and buses...and the train pulls in it looks like it's gonna fall over the bridge.

wagz wrote:There really is no reduction in capacity in the line. If you look at the current timetable, you'll see all trains are already scheduled to pass around Lawndale (just south of Cheltenham Jct).

Its really not that big of a deal, the branch is short enough that it simply doesn't take that long for a train to traverse it.

Joe Wagner

Indeed. Even some rush-hour deadhead trains are scheduled to wait at CP-Cheltenham Jct. for southbound trains to clear the single track.

Another passing siding is to be constructed within CP-Newtown Junction as well to complete the project.

It's no big deal, really. Based on the current schedules, there is no loss of capacity, and on weekends, only one train at a time occupies the entire branch anyway.

It wouldn't be the first example of SEPTA operating a line single track with passing sidings. And NJ Transit does it quite well with the Gladstone Branch (just to name one).

Joe

Since we're on the R8 Fox Chase topic:

Does SEPTA have restoration of the R8 Newtown on it's capital projects list? I think it should be electric like the rest of the system and run on R3 like headways, what do you think?

Newtown has been on the capital budget since the 1980's (see the various Newtown threads). But we've never really seen any concrete action. The closest we came was in 1985 (or 86? someone correct me) when SEPTA tested some foreign made DMU units on the line. I actually found a couple of pictures of the test car in a few rail books.

Ever since then, the line has been slowly dismantled and covered over with dirt so we forget about it. Its easy to come up with a conspiracy that SEPTA wants to kill the entire branch, first by reducing Newtown to nothing, then slowly choking off everything south of Fox Chase, but who knows. Its all politics these days. I think the one sentence in the capital budget is there more for entertainment than reality.

Their attitude is pretty funny though, they won't make restoration a priority, but no one else can use the ROW for anything either (the rails-to-trails phanatics), and with each passing year the decay of the line just gets worse and worse.

jfrey40535 wrote:Newtown has been on the capital budget since the 1980's (see the various Newtown threads). But we've never really seen any concrete action. The closest we came was in 1985 (or 86? someone correct me) when SEPTA tested some foreign made DMU units on the line. I actually found a couple of pictures of the test car in a few rail books.

Ever since then, the line has been slowly dismantled and covered over with dirt so we forget about it. Its easy to come up with a conspiracy that SEPTA wants to kill the entire branch, first by reducing Newtown to nothing, then slowly choking off everything south of Fox Chase, but who knows. Its all politics these days. I think the one sentence in the capital budget is there more for entertainment than reality.

Their attitude is pretty funny though, they won't make restoration a priority, but no one else can use the ROW for anything either (the rails-to-trails phanatics), and with each passing year the decay of the line just gets worse and worse.

If not Regional rail, then why not Diesel powered Light rail like the River Line? The trains could connect to Fox Chase trains.

Also, are they going to at least keep the ROW in tact so maybe future generations can restore it?

Bensalem SEPTA rider wrote:
Also, are they going to at least keep the ROW in tact so maybe future generations can restore it?

The Newtown branch ROW is already is very rough shape. While it is physically still in place exept for a total breach at Shady Lane (about a mile above Fox Chase), the ROW is totally overgrown and hidden in many places. All of the grade crossings have either been paved over or removed, along with all crossing equipment, except for a couple relay boxes. The diamonds across the West Trenton branch were removed about 20 years ago and would need to be replaced as well as probable rehab needed on some of the many bridges on the line. The last work to be performed on the branch was some tie replacement back in the early 80's.

One positive aspect of the branch that should at least maintain the ROW for the foreseeable future is the fact that fibre optic cables were laid from Bethayres to Newtown approximately five years ago. This should preclude any physical breach of the ROW between those points. There have also been several proposals to connect the line to the R3 at Bethayres and eliminate the portion above Fox Chase but they have also never gone anywhere.

Actually there is a new recent breach in Southampton just S. of the 2nd St Pike former grade crossing. I don't know how they manuvered around the fiber optics, but there is a 6 ft trench across the ROW for a new sewage pipe.

I doubt you will ever hear of more proposals for a R3 connector as the land in that area is swamp. Plus SEPTA wouldn't know what to do with the extra traffic on the R3. The guys at control would go bonkers.

Its unfortunate, but again all politics. Newtown ROW has many businesses that have "reclaimed" the land by parking their vehicles on it and whatnots.

Its funny, because in the '80's it seemed like SEPTA actually wanted to do something with the line. The ties were replaced, grade crossing signals improved, and new station platform lights installed at Southampton. Those lights, in usage hours, are brand new. I think they were put in a year before the line closed for good. Then the testing of the prototype RDC in the mid '80's. Its like after 1986-87 policy changed. What happened in the late '80's that altered their behavior? Did we get a new GM or something? Anyone know?

A neighbor of mine told me that SEPTA rehabbed the branch because they had already gotten the capital dollars from the federal government and they were required to use them for their intended purpose. There was a lot involved in the end of diesel/RDC operations - the perpetual cash crunch, plus a hostile labor environment. Remember, those trains were Conrail trains until 1983, with Conrail crews. The Newtown-Fox Chase RDC shuttle was an experiment - SEPTA's first real rail operation. The BLE (I think) protested in Newtown when the service started, claiming that SEPTA was sending subway drivers to run a railroad service. (Seems a fair accusation to me, given SEPTA's priorities these days.) People were arrested. I think by the time SEPTA took over the operation, they wanted no parts of the hassle brought on by different modes plus the labor issues and retreated to the electrified zones.

jfrey40535 wrote:Actually there is a new recent breach in Southampton just S. of the 2nd St Pike former grade crossing. I don't know how they manuvered around the fiber optics, but there is a 6 ft trench across the ROW for a new sewage pipe.

I've seen the cut at Southampton, it would take less effort to repair that one than to restore the crossing, although I would have to wonder if they got Septa's permission to breach the ROW. As far as the fiber cables, that may explain the shallow depth of the sewer pipe.