Proposed MTA photo ban

A lot of good dialog on both sides of the issue! And certainly not a topic with a quick or easy solution.

As for the moron who laid down by the rails to get a better photo angle, the suggestion is made that if he had a permit which could be then revoked, it would help. That's somewhat like saying if we made ownership of a certain type of gun illegal, then if somebody uses one to commit murder you've got something to charge him with. Hey - it's ALREADY illegal to kill someone, and it's ALREADY illegal to be on the tracks. Never mind taking the bozo's photo permit away, arrest him for trespassing!

There are countless things in our lives which in and of themselves are harmless - i.e. rail photography. But when misused or used for improper purposes, these things can pose a risk. Banning photography of trains makes less sense than limiting all automobiles to 5 MPH. Sure we'd save thousands of lives because collisions would be minor but do any of us think the idea really makes sense?

When rail photography is entirely banned, I will become a criminal!

Aji-tater wrote: When rail photography is entirely banned, I will become a criminal!

I call top bunk! LOL

Pablo; quote:

"We may all disagree, and you may all disagree with me, but the simple fact of the matter is that the railroads' and the country's right to move freight safely supercedes anyone's right to take pictures."

Your diatribe not withstanding just HOW does my taking pictures of trains
supercede any railroads or countrys right to move frieght?

WAKE up man and think.

STEAM ON
/--OOO-;-00--00-

moving freight and taking pictures have nothing to do with eachother. Thats what the problem is here.

Dave, I respectfully submit you are missing the point entirely. The photo ban will not stop surveillance - people who want to gather detailed information in order to use it against us wont be stopped by this ban. The whole point of espionage is that it is done without anyone knowing about it. Only law-abiding citizens will be stopped by this ban- not those trying to hurt us. That is what has us so upset.

If I'm out somewhere taking pictures, I certainly don't mind answering a few questions about who I am, and why I'm out taking pictures... that would be responsible investigation. But please don't tell me that I'm not allowed to photograph trains. That's just dumb.

-otto-

The last three posts are missing the point entirely. I am not suggesting that in a peacetime society, pictures would have anything to do with moving freight. As I hope you all have noticed, we are not in a peace-time society. We are at war. This war may last our entire lifetimes. So, as some of you can't seem to understand, aimlessly taking pictures of transportation equipment for not other reason than to simply do it is not going to be viewed too kindly by authorities, especially if what you are shooting could be somehow construed as surveillance. Standing in the open shooting pictures IS surveillance if you are suggesting you are shooting pictures for a hobby, but really doing it for ill-gotten reasons.

Whether you choose to admit or understand this, railroads don't like to advertize their operating schedules for different reasons, but today? Because they are aware of what the federal government suggests railroads do in regards to terrorism. And why else do you think the police roll if you are taking pictures? It's unusual, even though not in our circles. It's an easy logical conclusion, especially when keeping in mind what railroads already do and what the federal governemnt says, that someone taking pictures of a train, whether from public property or not, could be a threat. Period. Anyone not seeing this is not paying attention to the world we live in. If it's a threat, what's it a threat to? Interstate commerce, because that's what a terrorist attack would disrupt.

I work for a railroad now, and there are published items from the government. Don't take my word for it, talk to someone that works for a railroad. Why do you think people ARE more tense now? Why are they more vigilant now? Why do they now care if you are taking pictures of an obscure yard unit at Bison or UP run-through power at Selkirk? Because you COULD be a threat. Of course, Otto, and 0-6-0, you aren't. I'm not. But no one can make that judgement.

As my last point, talk to anyone that remembers what it was like to live on or near a coast during World War II. For the war effort, some scrap dealers had their "collection" or "inventory" raided by the government; metal that was needed for the effort was kicked back into the system. Not fair. But it was what had to be done. Do you think it would be kosher then to snap pics of trains near major landmarks? Ask someone who lived back then about the fear and paranoia that surrounded the revelation that Germans (who tend to be rather white, not muslim) had been taking pics of things for years to identify potential targets. Some of these feelings turned to anger when people realized that some of these surveillance things could have been prevented with some easy measures. Perhaps this is at the core of MTA's argument.

Dave Becker

espionage: The act or practice of spying or of using spies to obtain secret information, as about another government or a business competitor. The practice of gathering, transmitting, or losing through gross negligence information relating to the defense of the U.S. with the intent that or with reason to believe that the information will be used to the injury of the U.S. or the advantage of a foreign nation. The systematic use of spies to get military or political secrets.

surveillance: The act of observing or the condition of being observed. The collection, collation, analysis, and dissemination of data.

Dave, I understand your point of view, but you haven't explained how banning amateur photography will stop espionage. No one can stop surveillance. I do not mind being talked to by police- that's their job, and I have nothing to hide from them. Let them come out if they must- but don't believe for a minute that banning photography makes us more secure.

-otto-

Mr Becker: I'd rather not do this but I must respond. You sir seem very
firm in your conviction but I,m very firm in mine. I do not want you to take my comments personally but I believe your reasoning is flawed if not dangerous. Fear and ignorance are cousins. One seems to breed the other. The installation of FEAR in their targets is at the core of terrorism and
is achieved in some ways by the unwitting. Your reasoning would make me smile if I were a terrorist as you seem quite willing to give up your and
my rights. Railroad photography is not a right,thats true, but freedom and
the pursuit of happiness is. The Bill of Rights you referenced in one of
your posts limits the government NOT the people. This is an important
distinction unfortunately forgotten in much of our society.

Who are you to say that my taking pictures is aimless? Surveillance?
Are the people crammed into NFL stadiums, with cameras no less, surveilling or enjoying a pasttime or hobby? We could all list many so
called mainstream pursuits and railfanning surely is not one of them ,
and find some reason of safety or security to curtail them. We (railfans)
are by virtue of our comparitively small numbers easy targets for
those who perceive us as some kind of threat. Again I ask you for
proof.

We are at war you say, that may be true. They have been at war with us
it seems for quite awhile. Remember that 9/11 was the second attack on
the WTC. Where was the hue and cry about railfans between 93' and 01'.
The plain truth is this; Our government ,charged with the protection of the
citizenry from all enemies foreign and domestic,failed us bigtime. You
now ask me to surrender my rights to this "authority" for our protection?
I think not. Least you think i'm an anachist I assure you I am not. I will
and have always IDd myself to the proper authority when asked as this
falls in the realm of reasonableness. I do not know for which RR you work
or what postion you have with that company but know this. If the CEO of
(you name the road) were to join me trackside, while I was on public
property taking pics or just waveing to the crew and he/she asked me to
move along, I would respectfully decline.

A couple of points more.
You say RR don,t like to post their schedule? Have you ever seen an Amtrak, NJT, SEPTA orMTA timetable. How could they do business with
out one? What would be a more likely a target. Freight or Passenger.

Its unusual for people to take pictures of trains? Did you ever see a pic
of the Golden Spike ceremony, heard of OWLink,David Morgan or
Jim Shaugnessy? This" unusuaul" activity has been going on a long time.

Here's my short list of unusual activity. Middleastern man asking how
to steer a jumbo jet,but not land or take off. Giving drivers license to
illegals and the undocumented. How about passing on OBL After the
Khabor Towers. I could go on but you get the point.
....... I've had my say

STEAM(freely)ON
/--OOO-;--oo--oo-

I don't think you'll get anything into that branwashed dope Otto. I Agree with everyone else here who would argue the same there is noone out there that can stop anyone from sanping photos of trains, Planes, Ships or Automobiles!! hell there is so much info on this internet its carzy you can find anything on here any time any where at any time.

I know a few people that work for CSX and none of them say anything about me takeing pics in fact I have been told that us railfans are the ones out there with the cell phones, ham radios and CB's calling the cops every time we see something wrong or someone that done not belong.
Were a stong group of people sho just have alove for are hobbys. The Ham Radio clubs in NY sit by the Rt90 over passes every holloween nite to make sure that no one is there throwing pumpkins off on to cars or trains below. If there were not there think of how many people would be hurt if something where to happen!!
If we were not there the railroads would be hit by vandles or even someone out looking to do damge.
I turned in a guy that was makeing posts in the general railroad operations form into the Austrailuan Government for chattering about how he tryed to derail a train with rocks. What a moron!! brag about it here on this site I got him to spill his guts on here he spilled out the whole detailed plan and what he was doing. As far as the Austaluian Government gos I was rewarded niceley by them for fileing such a detailed report of the problum . I'm just a railfan and thats all I am If you want to view me as a nark I don't care thats your opinion. If I had not have spoken out about such an issue then God knows someone could have been killed down there. I may not live in anouther country and I may have given up with this one all together. But you know I see something wrong I'll report it. If the cops bust me for doing something stupid such as takeing pics then they'll have to shoot me becuse I'll keep going back. I already have a small list of railroads that I stoped reporting problums to or just no longer railfan becuse they gave me a hard time over stupid stuff. As far as my good nature gos they just lost a fellow railfan who can look the outher way and say screw'em.

To sum it up, take all the pictures you want. The world will never be the same as Sept 10th 2001. I took plenty of pictures today along Septa and did not get punked by authorities.

Please do not attack Dave (or anyone else) for their views or opinions. You wouldn't want to be attacked for your own contrary views.

I am not out to change the world's point of view regarding our priviledge to enjoy railroad photography. I am going to continue to conduct myself in a repsonsible manner as I continue to enjoy my hobby with cautious optimism... and I hope you all will do the same.

-otto-

First, let me say that anyone that disagrees with me should be beaten like a pinata. OK, just kidding.

Let me try to go post by post to clarify what I'm saying...

Otto's Quote:
...you haven't explained how banning amateur photography will stop espionage. No one can stop surveillance...but don't believe for a minute that banning photography makes us more secure.

Anything could be espionage. It's what you do with your surveilance that would consitute espionage. If said photographs get sent someplace else for someone else's use to plan, etc...then it's espionage. It's really just a question of semantics, not a huge difference in opinion here.

0-6-0's quote:
Your reasoning would make me smile if I were a terrorist as you seem quite willing to give up your and my rights.

Not true at all. I have no desire to have someone suddenly tell me that I can't take pictures as I do from time to time, or post them on a website, as I run. For those who don't know, I run a website, Jamestown Area Railfan Page. I currently have somewhere in the area of 600 or so pictures uploaded with about 1000 more I have just been given, including recent pictures of operations of the WNYP. Trust me, I have no wish to have my ability to post pictures or take pictures curtailed. However, I do understand that events from 2001 and forward may change our lives. I understand that to be able to have the freedom to travel unencumbered about the country as I do from time to time, I have to have certain freedoms either limited or taken away, small though they be. These changes are for the greater good of the people of this country, and I don't believe they are designed to take away my larger freedoms, in this case, my ability to travel, whether by plan, train, or automobile.

0-6-0's quote:
Who are you to say that my taking pictures is aimless?...We (railfans)
are by virtue of our comparitively small numbers easy targets for
those who perceive us as some kind of threat. Again I ask you for
proof.

I don't think it's aimless. The public just may. I hope you can gather that from my point above. most people, however, don't understand railroads as we do, and certainly don't like railroads as we do. Any quick check of the events in Kingston recently might back that up. On the WNYP, there are a few people (not too many, but they do exist) that are displeased the railroad came back. Why? Real estate agents told them there'd be no chance of a coal train coming through ever again at 3am. Um.....wrong. So those people don't like railroads. And yes, we are easy targets. Even railfans know there are some people that are complete foamers... and the public may perceive all of us as foamers. You are completely correct.

0-6-0's quote:
I do not know for which RR you work or what postion you have with that company but know this. If the CEO of (you name the road) were to join me trackside, while I was on public property taking pics or just waveing to the crew and he/she asked me to move along, I would respectfully decline.

My point is not that this would happen now. My point is that it very well could happen given a serious terrorist attack on a freight railroad. And I have a greater point to make at the end of this post that relates to 0-6-0's quote here.

0-6-0's quote:
You say RR don,t like to post their schedule? Have you ever seen an Amtrak, NJT, SEPTA orMTA timetable. How could they do business with
out one? What would be a more likely a target. Freight or Passenger.

Good point. I am not arguing that Amtrak, etc, doesn't post their schedules. Of course they do. As do the commuters. As did the Spanish railway that was the victim of an attack. But just take a look at what happened in the south...a derailment that contained only a few cars of Chlorine gas completely disabled an entire area. Now, drop that problem in the middle of a big city. Look at the mess that was caused in Baltimore a few years back with the tunnel fire. The entire city of Baltimore was completely shut down, and foolish people were briefly debating the possibility of rerouting all HazMat shipments away from large cities. They can't of course, but this is my point...imagine a 50 car shipment of propane or Chlorine or (fill in the blank) derailing near a major suburb or downtown someplace. That's going to have a larger effect, I think, than a passenger derialment...though with a smaller loss of life. This is an arguable point.

0-6-0's point:
This" unusual" activity has been going on a long time.

Of course it has, and it will until it's not allowed to. However, many of out greatest pictures, whether photographs or paintings, were commissioned by the railroads it portrayed. This is NOT always the case, of course. Just sometimes. And again, I'm not saying it should stop. I'm saying it could. And I hope you understand that things are vastly different now than they have ever been in this country, even going back to World War II. All it will take is one major attack.

And your point about the other unusual activity is dead on. All of that should have been noticed and reoprted, and sadly, was not.

SRS125's point:
The Ham Radio clubs in NY sit by the Rt90 over passes every holloween nite to make sure that no one is there throwing pumpkins off on to cars or trains below. If there were not there think of how many people would be hurt if something where to happen!!

That's lovely. And perfectly useless for our argument. I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else shouldn't be doing things to stop acts of stupid people. But sitting in a car to provide a presence to prevent acts of mischief or vandalism is not the same thing as taking pictures to support a hobby. And quite honestly, if someone happened to get into a car accident because they clipped (or worse) one of the hammie's cars, the hammies would be liable...so I'm surprised that the police haven't gotten them to move along yet. I didn't know they did that.

The idea that railfans are this huge legion of people preventing ne'erdowells from causing problems is a bit of an exaggeration. This isn;t the case...in large part because there aren't that many of us. Realistically, though, reporting some idiot talking about putting rocks on the rails doesn't make you a nark. It makes you a responsible human being.

SRS125's quote:
I already have a small list of railroads that I stoped reporting problums to or just no longer railfan becuse they gave me a hard time over stupid stuff.

Of course you do. Because they have no reason to believe that you have any idea what you are talking about. And if you attempted to contact them via e-mail, your grammar and spelling would be one reason why. And why do they give you a hard time? Because they want to know why you are taking pictures...or watching....or videoing...because it runs counter to a secure operation. Which is a point I've made before.

njt/mnrrbuff's quote:
To sum it up, take all the pictures you want. The world will never be the same as Sept 10th 2001. I took plenty of pictures today along Septa and did not get punked by authorities.

Excellent. This is how it should be.

My final point...remember that we talking about the MTA banning photography, which is inherently different than snapping pics of an open space...aren't they limiting photography that would also identify places to sabotage what in essence are building foundations, as well as platforms with large, concentrated numbers of people? I have been making points about freight railroads...but to bring it back to 0-6-0's point from long before, if you're asked to stop taking pics on an MTA platform, you'd better stop, and you'd lose that court case easily.

Dave Becker

I think it is important not to group all railroads together as being all opposed to railfan photography. Note UP's new ad requesting scenic shots of their operations for thier next calendar. How else do you get the photos they want then by standling along the tracks, at a station, along a ridge, or from a stream, taking photos of their operations and their equipment?

We are not at war in the sense of the WWII by any means where such photography was limited. The main problem is we have all of these rules and guidelines being proposed from various agencies, companies, and municipal goverments that have little forethought and little communication between them. Hence, the some local police bother the heck out of you for taking photos and are even misinformed about the rules in place (the common story of being told takings photos of bridges, industry, etc. is illegal). The MTA wants to ban photos but Pataki and Bloomburg think it should be OK to take photos. The goverment has concerns about railfans and railroad safety yet Amtrak and UP didn't seem to get the message and wants photos AND the AAR has a railfan club that will show you how to take photos and what some of the best places are to do it!

Another part of the problem is all of this spying and such that people talk about. I never read anything about the 19 in the WTC attack that was "undercover". Goverments like things undercover. When people are hiding cameras in vents to videotape dressing rooms or people are sticking their cell phones up women's skirts, we make laws against such actions. It's all very clear-cut to people. Hiding a camera is bad. But the 19 in the WTC attack did things in the open. They took flight classes like regular people. They stood in line at ATMs and took money out. They stood in NY and videotaped buildings just like other tourists. Do we ban cameras? Do we fondle women in airport security checks? Do we ban radio scanners (remember that federal bill right after 9/11?)? The rule and lawmakers get all confused and that confusion causes those that have to follow-though with the rules to be confused. I've heard many people say "I do my rail photography in the open so people know what I'm doing. It shows I'm not spying." Guess what? Neither were the 19 in the WTC incident!

I think the railfan community needs to be on the offensive rather than the defensive. Highlight what railfans have done (calls to railroads when problems are spotted, working with Operation Lifesaver, etc.). If you get interviewed or asked to write a story or letter, talk about those things and not just "My Rights!" and "everyone does it".

Who knows, maybe we need to start CRAP, the Civil RAil Patrol??

Charles

As much as I disagree with the MTA ban, I do think it's a good idea to clearly separate the issues of taking pictures on RR property (that is, in a subway station or on a commuter platform in the case of NJT) and standing on public property. The property owner's right to restrict photography is pretty well established. For example, MBTA has banned photography in the Boston subways for years now (I was removed from Park Street in the late 80's for example, and I wasn't using flash). Likewise, I have been challenged at Hoboken and (dating myself here) Reading Terminal, both long before 9/11. Fair enough: their playground, their rules.

Out on the road, its a different picture (pun acknowledged, but not premeditated). No one has the right to stop you from photographing when you are in a public space. The legal doctrine is that a camera is an extension of the eye; consequently you can shoot anything you can legally see. That's been confirmed strongly in the case of industrial rentacops, but not (to my knowledge anyway) tested on an extreme case like MPs near military installations.

That said, this logic that "we're at war, so you liberties go out the window" is dead wrong an a couple of points. First, we are NOT at war with terrorism in the sense that the founding fathers conceived of it. We're at war in Iraq (although that's not the issue here), but there is no such thing going on versus Al Quaeda. Secondly, the historic record of civil liberty restrictions in real wars is pretty bad. Lincoln suspended habeus corpus during the Civil War, and this is widely viewed as a black mark on his otherwise admirable career. The internment of thousands of Japanese during WWII evidently did NOTHING to help the war effort (there never was a sabotage act carried out or planned), and was belatedly judged to be an outrage.

Finally, this notion of war without end sounds profoundly Orwellian to me. Remember in "1984", how the population was kept in line by a system of continual warfare, freshened up a bit from time to time by changing the enemy? With just enough random destruction once in a while to give the whole system an air of legitimacy?

I don't ordinarily use works of literature to justify my political positions, but I now have an Attorney General who describes the Geneva Convention as "quaint" while justifying holding suspected terrorists, many of whom HE concedes are innocent in any legal definition of the word, forever. And the only reason he can see not to torture them is that he works for a president who's a nice guy and isn't into that sort of thing.

Think I'm exaggerating? Read that guy's testimony from a few days ago. Republican senators offered him several opportunities to back down gracefully and say that torturing people was illegal, and what they got was statements that it was against policy. Well folks, policy can be changed, quickly and without notice. That's why we have laws, and not just policy. You have to tell people, and ask their permission, when you change the law.

As it happens, he may be right--for all his faults, George W Bush does appear to be a nice guy. But the whole idea of the rule of law is that the system is supposed to be constructed to function even when it ISN'T being led by nice guys. If Bush can ship people into legal limbo forever now, what's to prevent the Hillary Clinton adminstration from indefinitely jailing NRA members the next time some wacko blows up a Federal office building?

Its not a stupid idea for the The Ham Radio Club to have someone siting by the highway over passes keeping an eye on things one nite a year they work with the New York State police and local sharffs Department and city police. Maybe you love the idea of a center block or pumpkin landing on your windshiled of your car or even a locomotive but I sures in heck would not!
I rember about 11 years ago kids droped a couple of center blocks off and into the windshild of an Amtrak Train on the Oakland Road Bridge in Weedsport, NY fencing went up a week later on both sides of the bridge. and the Ham Radio Club started working with the state police watching over bridges the following Year.

Govener Schwrtsanagger already came up with the idea of wanting to put the place of orgian of Frorigners on there drivers licences. One minority protested saying it was wrong and that it would be like signaling people out. I would agree with in most cases on that one They should also list what language(s) they speek as well.

All that I do know is that the hobby of railfaning for me is geting boreing there are fewer trains runing under CSX than there were in the Conrail Days to many stupid unwelcome people from New Jersey and Pennylvainna are invadeing are railfaning spots here in central New York
and get them selves killed by the trains. With gas prices jumping up and down every outher week its not worth the hassle anymore. I'm trying to get rid of all of the now useless junk and outher grabage that I have collected in the past most of it being times tables, a rule book, a few switch lock keys along with a bunch of outher junk will hit the burn barral if I can't sell it off Its all listed in the for sale section on this web site. I'm tending to focus more on railroad history, model building (trains and ships) and outher hobbys such as collecting coins and Forign bank notes.