High-speed rail opposition -- in states that won it

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:In August while on my way home from Upstate New York, I stopped in Raleigh, NC to visit my sister for a day and she is not
in favor of any rail expansion or improvements. Of course we got into an argument over it. The sad thing about this is that
there are others like her who do not see the common sense of decent rail service as an alternative to airports and more
lanes.
I hope the situation is not hopeless but I do not like what I am hearing from lots of corners.
Noel Weaver

NCDOT has a modest, sensible passenger rail operation. However, I would expect that the vast majority of NC residents don't use any form of passenger rail, whereas automobile ownership is nearly universal and there is a major airline hub in the region. In a broad sense, the average NC voter doesn't have any frame of reference for the HSR debate. It doesn't effect their lives.

There's one minor problem with passenger rail service in North Carolina, and that has to do with how the population is distributed. The population is more spread out ( thin density, exceptions being in cities ), thus usage of passenger rail service probably isn't very high ( compared to what it could be ). With investment in sustainable communities designed around the railroad, eventually that will probably change.

Here on Long Island there's fairly strong usage of the railroad, even out east ( at least on the South Shore where there's actually decent service ). Again that has to do with the distribution of population, which is tightly packed and for the most part close by ( very dense ).

The common sense is when you add the sustainable development to the rail argument. Raleigh is a very nice city for the record, visited my cousin when he graduated Duke University a few years back.

num1hendrickfan wrote:

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:In August while on my way home from Upstate New York, I stopped in Raleigh, NC to visit my sister for a day and she is not
in favor of any rail expansion or improvements. Of course we got into an argument over it. The sad thing about this is that
there are others like her who do not see the common sense of decent rail service as an alternative to airports and more
lanes.
I hope the situation is not hopeless but I do not like what I am hearing from lots of corners.
Noel Weaver

NCDOT has a modest, sensible passenger rail operation. However, I would expect that the vast majority of NC residents don't use any form of passenger rail, whereas automobile ownership is nearly universal and there is a major airline hub in the region. In a broad sense, the average NC voter doesn't have any frame of reference for the HSR debate. It doesn't effect their lives.

There's one minor problem with passenger rail service in North Carolina, and that has to do with how the population is distributed. The population is more spread out ( thin density, exceptions being in cities ), thus usage of passenger rail service probably isn't very high ( compared to what it could be ). With investment in sustainable communities designed around the railroad, eventually that will probably change.

Why would the taxpayers of North Caroline have to make an "investment in sustainable communities," just for the sake of HSR? If HSR doesn't fit into a community, why does the community need to be reconfigured for the sake of HSR?

Basically, the term "sustainable development" is just a way of saying "a lower standard of living." Yes, you can pay more, to live in a smaller home, just to pay more taxes, so you can give up your car, so you can stand in the rain, waiting for the trolley. Does the average NC resident really want their state to be more like Portland, Oregon, where a six figure income pays for a very spartan lifestyle. Nope.

num1hendrickfan wrote:Here on Long Island there's fairly strong usage of the railroad, even out east ( at least on the South Shore where there's actually decent service ). Again that has to do with the distribution of population, which is tightly packed and for the most part close by ( very dense ).

Sadly, despite the fact that Long Island is naturally well suited to passenger rail, the mismanagement of the MTA has ensured that increasing numbers of Long Islanders will choose to ride the Hampton Jitney, which is basically just a bus with executive seating and beverage service, sitting in traffic, rather than taking the LIRR.

I can see why Long Islander are suspicious of HSR, given the steady stream of controversy from the MTA.

num1hendrickfan wrote:The common sense is when you add the sustainable development to the rail argument.

No, that's not common sense, that's a telling people how to live. I'd challenge any North Carolina politician to hold up Europe, or more specifically, France, as an example of how North Carolina should invest in "sustainable development."

No, that's not common sense, that's telling people how to live. I'd challenge any North Carolina politician to hold up Europe, or more specifically, France, as an example of how North Carolina should invest in "sustainable development."

Ohh dear, that phrase "sustainable development" again. It's written into the Treaty of Lisbon, aka the European Union's constitution, so it's being forced upon 27 member nation-states. Next time anyone tries to hold up Europe as an example of anything, remind them that their government in Brussels is patterned after the Soviet Union's government. Lots of telling people how to live occurring there.

[quote="num1hendrickfanThere's one minor problem with passenger rail service in North Carolina, and that has to do with how the population is distributed. The population is more spread out ( thin density, exceptions being in cities ), thus usage of passenger rail service probably isn't very high ( compared to what it could be ). With investment in sustainable communities designed around the railroad, eventually that will probably change.

Here on Long Island there's fairly strong usage of the railroad, even out east ( at least on the South Shore where there's actually decent service ). Again that has to do with the distribution of population, which is tightly packed and for the most part close by ( very dense ).

The common sense is when you add the sustainable development to the rail argument. Raleigh is a very nice city for the record, visited my cousin when he graduated Duke University a few years back.[/quote]

On the contrary, the corridor service between Charlotte and Raleigh connects not only the capital but also the two largest
metro areas in this fast growing state. Intermediate points are very sustantial as well with populations in excess of:
Raleigh 276,000, Cary 94,000, Durham 187,000, Brulington 44,000, Greensboro 223,000, High Point 88,000, Salisbury 26,000, Kannapolis 36,000 and Charlotte 540,000.
The population of most of these stops is generally much higher than the populations of most points on Long Island and
served by the Long Island Rail Road. I would be willing to bet that for the three round trips, there is more intermediate
travel here than on most of the Long Island Rail Road. Not exactly "thin density".
The key here is that North Carolina has leadership that realizes the value of intercity corridor rail service and they are
making good use of it. I believe the areas of expansion that are under consideration have populations to warrant service
as well.
North Carolina has their transportation act far more in place than any of the other southern states and probably a lot of
northern states as well.
Noel Weaver

the candidates don't care what the people want. they only care about the lobbyists shoving money up their------------ if we continue shunning high speed rail in this country, we are in deep crap in the future... Roads aren't going to matter when there is no gas to put in people's cars to drive on the roads...

NC has a lot going for it and should be seventh in population in less than 20 years. A very good friend of mine, who is a native of NC, complains the state is getting too Yankee-fied (Another friend said the same thing about TX). Even though the whole South is a major recipient of Yankee-flight, NC is a bit special compared to the other Southern states I temporarily called home (NC, FL, SC, GA, and TN). You have to give NC credit for their work in establishing passenger rail service; especially considering NC claims to be the "Good Roads State". The state transportation budget in NC hovers around $4 Billion with about 5000 employees with about $40 million and 50 employees dedicated for rail service. In the past 20 years, the state spent $70 million just for station renovations and owns the NCRR between Charlotte and Morehead City (320 miles) collecting fees from NS and CSX for usage. Although the NCRR was mostly slow, congested, and single tracked, many improvements have been made with a lot more going to be accomplished in the next ten years. Considering it was not that long ago that Amtrak had four LD trains through the state and none connecting the big 4 population centers, NC is doing a great job and has big eyes for the future.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Florida? while I sincerely hope such is not the case, I think I-4 is on its way to having two additional lanes being added Orlando to Tampa - with rail money!!!

Nah. They just widened it from 4 to 6 lanes in the past decade or so (incidentally leaving room in the median for rail), and it doesn't need any more (outside the urban areas at least).

railfan365 wrote:

It seems to me that proposed improvements to this country's railroads are being sacrificed to attitudes that trave; by car or by air takes priority. Some peope just don't understand that train travel is more efficient and environmentally freindly than other methods.

And from a viewpont committed to environmentalism and the "social conscience/responsibility" more readily embraced by those on the speaker's left, that's correct. But there is an opposing view of approximately the same size on the speaker's right. And a much larger contingent in the mddle who are just trying to make ends meet, and would like the opportunity to live a little better from time to time.

I've been "under-employed" for most of the past four years, and have developed a number of friends in a group on the 'Net who are in the same situation. A number of them are Californians, and I've pointed out that a bare-bones California HSR, from Lancaster to Concord, with feeders based on Metrolink and BART, would be an excellent starting point. But most of my collegues have trouble with the concept of using other systems as a feeder. If the service can't be door-to-door, then they expect to do all but one leg via private auto.

And the dismal record od Los Angeles sprawling-but-thin RTD, and a noticeable deterioration in the maintenance and sanitation of Metrolink facilities has tarnished that system's image. And when the curent econonomic difficulties and societal polarization are added t0 the mix, observations like these:

Basically, the term "sustainable development" is just a way of saying "a lower standard of living." Yes, you can pay more, to live in a smaller home, just to pay more taxes, so you can give up your car, so you can stand in the rain, waiting for the trolley. Does the average NC resident really want their state to be more like Portland, Oregon, where a six figure income pays for a very spartan lifestyle. Nope.

Ohh dear, that phrase "sustainable development" again. It's written into the Treaty of Lisbon, aka the European Union's constitution, so it's being forced upon 27 member nation-states. Next time anyone tries to hold up Europe as an example of anything, remind them that their government in Brussels is patterned after the Soviet Union's government. Lots of telling people how to live occurring there.

play pretty well in my neighborhood. The grass-roota opposition has a higher percentage of voters who live under tighter economic discipline, understand the complexities of running a business, and think in the here and now. They don't cotton to sufficiently-insulated planners deciding what's best for them.

And that's not entirely fair, or always sensible in the long run, because most of us here, whatever our basic political orientation, know that there are passenger rail marketa which will evolve toward more sustainability. But the over-simplistic embrace of HSR by a mostly-young, not particularly-technical, and woefully-economically ignorant subculture has probably set that progress back by several years.

I can't vouch for it in personal knowledge, but NC has been regarded as a state that has been pushing for more rail service and is active in upgrading their stations. There are some upgrades to facilities in progress or in the short-term plan for the Charlotte-Greensboro-Raleigh-to Amtrak connector to DC & NY. NC does have some road problems, and it definitely lags behind Georgia (for example) on road quality and upkeep, and there has been a good amount of government corruption and money lost as well. Property taxes are favorable and yes, a lot of new residents are flocking in, from both the northeast and FL areas, enough to guarantee long-term growth. We just moved away from NC after having lived there 14 years, and I'm originally from NJ. There's a plan to eventually have rail service restored to Asheville, in fact some stations along the line have already been refurbished by local interests. Cities like Winston-Salem and the Capitol District (Raleigh-Durham) keep bringing up plans for light rail, as well as Charlotte, which already has a modern light rail line in place, keeps pushing for expansion as well as possible commuter service. Though everything is slow in this current economy, at least there are some good visionaries and advocates that keep pushing for more things to be done, and won't let it rest until something does get done. So I do rate NC as a good progressive force on this front.