Still A Market For Overnight Sleepers?

Is there still a market for short overnight sleeper journeys? I don’t think so. VIA tried the Toronto <> Montreal “Enterprise” from 2000 to 2005. It was well promoted but it didn’t work. As a railfan I rode numerous times and enjoyed it but VIA couldn’t get the business traveller into a sleeper by even offering sleeper one-way and VIA-1 the other. The daytime Toronto <> Kingston commuter portion of the run did work and was retained.

Obviously there is a market for sleepers on the Canadian and because of the length of the run, the Churchill train requires one too. The former overnight trains to northern Quebec once had sleepers but when these were converted to daytime runs they were now much more convenient for local passengers, the ridership increased and VIA costs of operating a sleeper were eliminated. Same goes for the Skeena which even got a daytime touring class.

The Chaleur is an obvious choice for conversion to a daytime service......leave the dome on and offer a touring class similar to the Skeena. The local stops along the St. Lawrence (Riviere-du-Loup, Rimouski, Mont Joli etc) and into the Gaspe have always been good traffic generators for VIA and would probably increase with a daytime service.

I even wonder about the Ocean. Except during the summer (& holidays) and when the Touring Class (former Easterly Class) is operated, the sleepers pretty well empty out at Moncton. Even the coach traffic is heavier west of Moncton. If VIA cut the Ocean back to a Moncton <> Montreal service, only two sets of equipment would be needed. That’s just what the Ocean was in the 1980s......you were required to change trains in Moncton to continue to Halifax. A fast daytime service could be offered connecting Halifax, Moncton and possibly Saint John, the Maritimes’ largest cities.

I can't say if short distance runs may still be a practical application for sleepers or not...

As a frequent passenger on the Ocean (between Montreal and Truro NS, so almost the full run), I can say that I like the idea of sleepers....except I haven't been able to take one yet! On a student budget, a round trip ticket in economy (coach) class is a huge saving over a comparable trip by air....however, once I try to upgrade to sleeper, it just gets to be far too much (and that's just comfort sleeper, not Touring or anything). My goal still is to have enough Preference points and maybe splurge a little such that in a few years, I might be able to make the trip by sleeper.

Until then, unless VIA drops the prices (which I realize they likely can't much), I'll be riding coach.

While I agree that daytime trains can attract more local traffic than overnight ones simply due to more passenger friendly boarding times, medium distance overnight trains (with sleepers) can provide faster travel between the endpoints and nearby stations. When a train has to sit overnight part way through its journey, it spends unproductive time.

At first glance, making the Chaleur an all daytime trip between Montreal and Gaspe sounds like a good idea, however, there are a few problems with it. At around 18 hours each way, you can't go end to end all in one day without one of the endpoints being served in the wee hours. There isn't a logical location mid-way, like Prince George on the Skeena, to break up the journey. Where would you make an overnight stop? Riviere-du-Loup? Rimouski? And what impact would this have on local passengers between stations on either side of this location? Another possibility could be an overnight stop further east, say Carleton, with a same-day turn at Gaspe. In either case, the same frequency (3 trips per week) can't be maintained with a single train set and a second one would be needed.

Ken V wrote: At first glance, making the Chaleur an all daytime trip between Montreal and Gaspe sounds like a good idea, however, there are a few problems with it. At around 18 hours each way, you can't go end to end all in one day without one of the endpoints being served in the wee hours.

No need to break the trip overnight at mid-point. The current Chaleur schedule has considerable padding. A lot of this is for the double stops required when running with the Ocean and the splitting/combining at Matapedia. Looking through old timetables it appears that 2 1\2 + hours could be cut from the schedule so end point times of 7:30 am to 10:30 or 11pm are feasible. If a dome is operated, eastbound you would have views of the St. Lawrence not currently available to Chaleur passenger. Granted, some of the Gaspe coast would be covered in darkness depending on the time of year but would be in full view returning the next morning.

It would be nice to see some O&D figures for the Chaleur. If Montreal is the main focus city with passengers connecting into corridor trains, perhaps an overnight service is the best option. But if it was Quebec City, a day train might be the better choice and the shorter run, would give good end point times. VIA ran a Quebec City <> Mont Joli train in the 1980s “Le Saint-Laurent”.

(FYI....”Le Saint-Laurent” was originally a Montreal <> Mont Joli service launched in the “Great Maritime Restructuring” of October 1979 and even included a Skyline Dome which came from the “old” CP Atlantic. The Saint-Laurent was inaugurated to replace the Scotian which became the “new” Atlantic on the CP line through Maine).

NS VIA FAN wrote:It would be nice to see some O&D figures for the Chaleur. If Montreal is the main focus city with passengers connecting into corridor trains, perhaps an overnight service is the best option. But if it was Quebec City, a day train might be the better choice and the shorter run, would give good end point times. VIA ran a Quebec City <> Mont Joli train in the 1980s “Le Saint-Laurent”.

(FYI....”Le Saint-Laurent” was originally a Montreal <> Mont Joli service launched in the “Great Maritime Restructuring” of October 1979 and even included a Skyline Dome which came from the “old” CP Atlantic. The Saint-Laurent was inaugurated to replace the Scotian which became the “new” Atlantic on the CP line through Maine).

How about going back to the 70's or possibly early 80's when the Ocean used to leave Montreal at 17:15 for Halifax and the Gaspe/Scotian Train would leave somewhere between 23:15 and 23:35 for Gaspe and Halifax?
The Gaspe train would arrive in Gaspe between 17:30/18:00 and go back out the next day.
The day train connecting in Matapedia for Halifax would leave around 11:00ET/12:00AT and ariive in Halifax around 20:00/21:00?
I think the milage is about 450 miles?
They could run the Gaspe train again this way again since it runs seperately from the Ocean in the summer and have a connecting day train meet it at Matapedia where the Gaspe Train branches off the mainline for Gaspe 202 miles away.
They could service the day train train in Campbellton, NB and ferry it over to Matapedia, which is about 12 miles away I think?
When I was a young child going to Gaspe I remember having to change in Matapedia to Budd cars which layed over in Cambellton I think?
I also remember switching trains at Matapedia and catching another train coming from Montreal I think?
Does anybody remember this as I maybe wrong with with some of the facts as I was quite young!!!

Even during the few summers when the Chaleur ran separately from the Ocean, it still had problems keeping to the schedule. Westbound runs did better than eastbound according to postings on other boards; some trains arrived quite early into Montreal. The infamous short-turning at New Carlisle, cheating passengers out of the best scenery in the Gaspé peninsula, was still a problem. VIA didn’t bother running the trains separately this summer. An extra-long Chaleur carrying passengers to a celebration in Gaspé was bustituted east of New Carlisle (over 200 passengers according to an article in le Soloeil) even though it was less than two hours late.

Regarding the passenger loads on the Ocean, on one off-season trip I took with three friends, there were only six sleeper passengers out of Halifax until Moncton, when dozens boarded. On most of my peak-season trips the majority of sleeper passengers do travel to/from Halifax. When the Ocean’s passengers had to change trains in Moncton to and from Halifax, they rode the Atlantic which provided through Montréal-Halifax service via Maine. In the days before the Renaissance equipment was introduced, there was a sleeper shortage on the Ocean in the summer – because so many Chateau-series sleepers were used on the Canadian - and up to four sleepers were short-turned at Moncton. That left as few as two sleepers plus the Park car to run through to Halifax. An extra coach for Easterly Class passengers was operated behind the diner for those who couldn’t get through sleeper space. This did not go over well with many passengers and I’m told by a VIA manager that they were relieved when they could go back to running the full consist to and from Halifax. But even in the days of CN operation it was not unusual for some sleepers to be removed at Moncton.

Although I did not ride it, I remember seeing the connecting RDC for Gaspé passengers. It even had a unique “club car” section (with the then usual “2+1” seating) behind the baggage compartment of an RDC-2, so sleeper passengers could travel first class all the way Montréal to and from Gaspé.

marquisofmississauga wrote:Even during the few summers when the Chaleur ran separately from the Ocean, it still had problems keeping to the schedule. Westbound runs did better than eastbound according to postings on other boards; some trains arrived quite early into Montreal. The infamous short-turning at New Carlisle, cheating passengers out of the best scenery in the Gaspé peninsula, was still a problem. VIA didn’t bother running the trains separately this summer. An extra-long Chaleur carrying passengers to a celebration in Gaspé was bustituted east of New Carlisle (over 200 passengers according to an article in le Soloeil) even though it was less than two hours late.

Regarding the passenger loads on the Ocean, on one off-season trip I took with three friends, there were only six sleeper passengers out of Halifax until Moncton, when dozens boarded. On most of my peak-season trips the majority of sleeper passengers do travel to/from Halifax. When the Ocean’s passengers had to change trains in Moncton to and from Halifax, they rode the Atlantic which provided through Montréal-Halifax service via Maine. In the days before the Renaissance equipment was introduced, there was a sleeper shortage on the Ocean in the summer – because so many Chateau-series sleepers were used on the Canadian - and up to four sleepers were short-turned at Moncton. That left as few as two sleepers plus the Park car to run through to Halifax. An extra coach for Easterly Class passengers was operated behind the diner for those who couldn’t get through sleeper space. This did not go over well with many passengers and I’m told by a VIA manager that they were relieved when they could go back to running the full consist to and from Halifax. But even in the days of CN operation it was not unusual for some sleepers to be removed at Moncton.

Although I did not ride it, I remember seeing the connecting RDC for Gaspé passengers. It even had a unique “club car” section (with the then usual “2+1” seating) behind the baggage compartment of an RDC-2, so sleeper passengers could travel first class all the way Montréal to and from Gaspé.

I didn't know that the RDC'S had a club car section for sleepeing car passengers! Do you know how many seats the had in the 2-1 seating configuration? It couldn't have been very many seats.
I was most likely only between 5 and 10 years old then and wouldn't remember that.

My parents said the RDC'S back then were called "THE SPUTNIKS"!? I have no idea who coined that name!?
Thanks for that interesting tidbit of information!

gaspeamtrak wrote:
I didn't know that the RDC'S had a club car section for sleepeing car passengers! Do you know how many seats the had in the 2-1 seating configuration? It couldn't have been very many seats.
I was most likely only between 5 and 10 years old then and wouldn't remember that.

My parents said the RDC'S back then were called "THE SPUTNIKS"!? I have no idea who coined that name!?
Thanks for that interesting tidbit of information!

Not 2-1 seating but 8 of the old style swivel type Parlour seats! CN modified RDC unit D-200 in 1965 to provide this First Class day service between Campbellton and Gaspe. Don't know if it lasted to the VIA era with this seating or when it was converted back to regular coach seating.

"THE SPUTNIKS" must have been a local term. We had RDCs here on the Halifax-Truro-Sydney run and they were never called that. CN's name for RDC trains was "Railiner"

I would definitely say that there is a market for overnight sleeper service, especially on the existing routes that VIA offers such on. The only reason why the "day trains" to northern Quebec came to be, is because VIA decided to keep and refurbish only its ex-CP Budd stainless steel fleet of cars. This left a shortage of sleepers in the system, as noted. So the trains to northern Quebec became day trains. Personally, I'd rather see on as an overnight and one as a day-train (perhaps travelling by night over the same portion the day train would cover).

The Skeena was also supposed to continue as an overnight train - and did with the ex-CP Stainless Steel Budd sleepers. Typically it had a Chateau sleeper. But VIA found that this train could attract more passengers (largely tourists) as a day train with a night layover at Prince George than largely as an overnight train. With the purchase of the ex-BC single level ultradome cars, this sort of sealed the fate that the Skeena would continue as a day train and cater to tourists with such unique equipment (ala Rocky Mountaineer but with local stops along the way).

The train to Gaspe and Ocean - I would hate to see these trains become any sort of day trains. The sleepers on the train to Gaspe are often full to sold out on many trips that I have taken it all the way from Montreal to Gaspe and back. Granted, it doesn't necessarily leave Montreal or Gaspe with the sleepers full, but they fill up and empty out "along the way" quite well. Same for the Ocean. And of course the Canadian and Hudson Bay train have sleepers for their long journeys.

Compared to Amtrak, VIA Rail operates more sleepers on most of its trains than coach cars. I think that says a lot for the "overnight sleeper market." That is VIA Rail has figured out a way to promote such and get the cars filled - often adding or subtracting cars enroute. While Amtrak is limited to largely two sleepers per long distance trains. Course this is also a function of VIA and Amtrak's operation. Looking at a cost structure example, VIA sleeping car attendants can handle multiple sleepers, while Amtrak sleeping car attendants just handle one sleeper. With the Renaissance cars coming online, this enabled VIA to offer and have more sleepers for its routes, where Amtrak doesn't necessarily have this flexibility.

I've said for a while that it might be worthy for VIA to offer overnight service on its corridor - a revived Enterprise - but one that serves more points than just the Montreal-Toronto run. For example, have the train start out at 6:00 p.m. leaving Quebec City and serving Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto, while still arriving at the Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, and Quebec in the early morning hours.

Overall, the long distance VIA trains seem to exist because of their sleeping cars. Without them, you'd have to create a train like the Skeena, but somehow offer the amenities and also the scenery to go along with it.

The Skeena and Chaleur are probably my two most favorite trains in VIA's system. And sometimes it is nice just to get away and take the Chaleur out to Gaspe and back. Thankfully, I've never been "short turned" on a trip.

Losing the sleepers I think would be very detrimental for VIA's long distance operations. I think now more than ever, if VIA wanted to expand its long distance network, it likely has enough sleepers available to do this - especially if they could run it with the "Northern Spririt Sleepers" that are out in Winnipeg in storage! Amtrak toyed with "run the trains during the day with coaches, and then let the passengers stay in hotels at night, before continuing on the next day." Well I just don't think that works, except for the example given for the Skeena. In matter of fact, I'd be curious if VIA would "try" operating the Skeena as a through overnight train in the winter (Edmonton to Prince Rupert though), one day a week in each direction, just to see what the results are, compared to the "day train." Jasper to Prince George and Prince George to Prince Rupert are also pretty descent end points respectively. And as mentioned, there seems to be a lot of local traffic on this train as well.

NS VIA FAN wrote:

gaspeamtrak wrote:
I didn't know that the RDC'S had a club car section for sleepeing car passengers! Do you know how many seats the had in the 2-1 seating configuration? It couldn't have been very many seats.
I was most likely only between 5 and 10 years old then and wouldn't remember that.

My parents said the RDC'S back then were called "THE SPUTNIKS"!? I have no idea who coined that name!?
Thanks for that interesting tidbit of information!

Not 2-1 seating but 8 of the old style swivel type Parlour seats! CN modified RDC unit D-200 in 1965 to provide this First Class day service between Campbellton and Gaspe. Don't know if it lasted to the VIA era with this seating or when it was converted back to regular coach seating.

"THE SPUTNIKS" must have been a local term. We had RDCs here on the Halifax-Truro-Sydney run and they were never called that. CN's name for RDC trains was "Railiner"

That is my mistake about the seating configuration. It was a long time ago. In the 1967 CN passenger Car Equipment manual, there is a diagram of RDC D-200 showing the parlour section containing eight individual seats. Unlike some other RDC-2s (D-204 & D-206) there was no extra toilet in that part of the car. The CN timetables of that era didn't mention the existence of the parlour seats in the listing of Equipment. Even though this was an RDC-2, the timetables show that no checked baggage was carried. It's interesting to note that in the mid-1960s in addition to the daily RDC service on this route there was also a daily ex. Sunday mixed train. I'm missing the summer 1967 timetable, so I can't say for sure when through train service started that year, but the RDCs ran until at least the change of time in April.

I can find no evidence that the parlour section in that RDC lasted very long after that. From some older copies of the Trackside Guide it appears the car had been converted to an RDC-1 - and renumbered D-100 - prior to being sold to VIA Rail.

An on-line copy of the CN Lines magazine has a lengthy article on the Railiners:
http://cnlines.ca/magazine/CN_Lines_v12n3.pdf

I think the reason why the sleeper service between Toronto and Montreal failed is because there were many day trains between the two cities. I believe sleeper trains perform better when there aren't many day trains too. The Canadian westward and the Ocean eastward don't have competition from day trains.

At some point of time, whether it is 8, 10, or 12 hours, day trains don't perform as well as night trains. The time of travel by trains between Montreal and Toronto was just too short for night trains to be competitive.

marquisofmississauga wrote:

NS VIA FAN wrote:

gaspeamtrak wrote:
I didn't know that the RDC'S had a club car section for sleepeing car passengers! Do you know how many seats the had in the 2-1 seating configuration? It couldn't have been very many seats.
I was most likely only between 5 and 10 years old then and wouldn't remember that.

My parents said the RDC'S back then were called "THE SPUTNIKS"!? I have no idea who coined that name!?
Thanks for that interesting tidbit of information!

Not 2-1 seating but 8 of the old style swivel type Parlour seats! CN modified RDC unit D-200 in 1965 to provide this First Class day service between Campbellton and Gaspe. Don't know if it lasted to the VIA era with this seating or when it was converted back to regular coach seating.

"THE SPUTNIKS" must have been a local term. We had RDCs here on the Halifax-Truro-Sydney run and they were never called that. CN's name for RDC trains was "Railiner"

That is my mistake about the seating configuration. It was a long time ago. In the 1967 CN passenger Car Equipment manual, there is a diagram of RDC D-200 showing the parlour section containing eight individual seats.

Now that is truly fascinating, especially since CN was converting 1+1 seating parlor cars to the 2+1 "club" configuration in the same era.

Does the diagram indicate the seat spacing/seat pitch for the parlor section? I've found diagrams of just about every RDC configuration, including the strange B&O Baggage-Diner-Coach, but this one has to be the most unique. That's one interesting diagram that I would love to see.

There is a viable sleeper market between Montreal and the Maritimes, and not just for tourists and sightseers.

It is wrong to confuse the relative failure of "The Enterprise" with the long term success of "The Chaleur" and "The Atlantic."

The real issue is the long term shift of business travelers away from night time travel in sleepers. Arguably, Amtrak dealt with this issue by extending the Boston-Washington night train to Newport News. Unlike "The Enterprise," Amtrak is still running the same service, albeit as the un-named 66/67, the sleeper having been removed due to an overall shortage of Viewliners, not a lack of demand.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:There is a viable sleeper market between Montreal and the Maritimes, and not just for tourists and sightseers.

It is wrong to confuse the relative failure of "The Enterprise" with the long term success of "The Chaleur" and "The Atlantic."

The real issue is the long term shift of business travelers away from night time travel in sleepers. Arguably, Amtrak dealt with this issue by extending the Boston-Washington night train to Newport News. Unlike "The Enterprise," Amtrak is still running the same service, albeit as the un-named 66/67, the sleeper having been removed due to an overall shortage of Viewliners, not a lack of demand.

Although this is a VIA forum and not Amtrak forum, Amtrak could easily press two more Viewliners into service IF it wanted to, as that would then require having 41 out of 50 Viewliners in service. However, Amtrak is stuck on just having 39 Viewliners in revenue service at one time, or 75% of the fleet, rather than a greater utilization, that would even keep the Viewliners - like the Enterprise - closer to its base of NYC. Amtrak reverted running the Federal as a Washington DC-Boston train - with passenger friendly arrivals/departures - rather than it's previous route along the Virgnia Tidewater region.

I agree that many "locals" use the sleeper cars on the long distance VIA Rail trains - not just tourists, as is often a misconpetion. However, the Canadian's schedule at present is FILLED with padding and driving away a lot of locals due to its new schedule. Western expansion plans for VIA really needs to be pressed forward - as once planned.