• Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: lensovet, Kaback9, nick11a

  by mhig9000
 
Metro-North projects the Port Jervis and Pascack Valley lines, which have 2,721 riders now, will carry 5,700 riders in 2010 and 7,166 in 2020 – a cumulative increase of 163 percent.

So if they can't even muster 10,000 riders on those lines through a much more densely populated area by 2020 how can anyone realistically think they will get 5,000 on a line in the Poconos.

Monroe County Population was 138,700 in 2000, Wayne County, 47,722, Pike 46,302.

Orange County New York Population is 340,000 and Rockland is 293,000.
The line is proposed to terminate in Scranton, so wouldnt it at least be worth including the population of Lackawanna County? (213,295). We should probably include most Luzerne County as well (319,250) as the county commissioners there have already purchased the old rail station in Wilkes-Barre and some ROW to run a line to Scranton if the cutoff is ever restored. Probably close to 2/3rds of the population of Luzerne County is within a half hour drive of Wilkes-Barre. That brings the total for the areas served by the cutoff in PA to around 600,000. Also, I beleive I heard that Monroe county is the fastest growing county in PA, but I could be wrong. Granted, Luzerne and Lackawanna counties probably dont have a lot of cars back and forth on 80 everyday, but they certainly will contribute to regular ridership on a restored cutoff.

  by uzplayer
 
cjvrr wrote:Bringing large corporations to Scranton is great. It allows people that live in the area to work in the area and not clog roads to jobs in NJ or NYC. I just don't see how moving a handful of large corporations to Scranton would increase ridership on Scranton to NYC service. Just because the area is boring doesn't mean a person is going to take a 2-1/2 hour train ride to NYC for some fun and another 2-1/2 hour ride to get home.

Are these corporations centrally located near a possible train station. If they are you might have some type of need for local commuter service. My guess is that they are spaced all up and down the valley and you need to drive to get to them from any rail hub. Then it may just be easier to take you car door to door, (one seat ride) instead of taking 3 different seats to get there.

This should be in the other forum but the Highlands Act does impact development near the Cutoff project too;
Scranton is being billed as the "Wall Street Backup." What that basically means is that a lot of financial corporations are implementing a secondary base of operations in Scanton PA in order to ensure redundancy should the unthinkable happen. In that case, a rail link between NYC and Scranton is justified. Scranton can get very busy in an extremely short period of time.

While it's attractive to move to Scranton, the bottom line is the area does not have enough qualified individuals to effectively run these backup centers. To get qualified people, a better transportation infrastructure must be put into place. Since the expertise is in the NYC metropolitan area and the majority of people will most likely not relocate, a connection such as the one proposed is viable.
1. As far as the Highland Act. How many applications for Highlands Applicability Determination have you filled out? I have done four now in the last year. I am by no means an expert at it. You need to file for an "exemption" and pay a fee even to repave a roadway. If you are in the Preservation area and you bought your residential property after 2005 you can not cover more than 6% of the lot with impervious area. You can not disturb more than a 1/4 acre of property. You can not have a septic system installed on a new lot of less than 85 acres without obtaining Highlands approval. If the addition to your home is valued at over $100,000 you need to get Highland's approval. Construction of new structures on new lots is severely restricted. All of the restrictions have not been put in place yet. The Highlands Council members are fighting over how severe the restrictions will be. The 300' restriction from any waterway would further limit development, some members want it to be 1,000'. So it does not apply only to Virgin properties as most people, including yourself, assume.
Regulations exist no matter what you do. You are right that some regulations of the Highlands Act effect re-development. However, there are ways around the act. They're developing new homes right at the end of my street. How did they get around the Highlands act? They asked Vernon to honor regulations from 1983 that did not prohibit development.

BTW. I do not think I put the notion forward of assuming. It's significantly easier to develop on land that is already developed versus land that is untouched.
2. The center of Vernon and the ski areas are in the Highlands Planning Area and the Town can either "opt in" or out of placing the same requirements on developers that the Persevation Area has. The redevelopment area for most towns had been set when the act was adopted. Local building codes still limit the amount and type of development that can occur. You aren't going to get a massive population explosion in Vernon, there just isn't enough viable land left for that.
You are wrong. Look at the most recent census statistics and you will already see that the population has increased. Home values continue to skyrocket here as well, despite a weakening real estate market.
3. What time would you have to leave Vernon to make it to a train in Vernon that will get to your place of employment on time? The train will easily take an hour between Vernon and Stockholm. Even if it takes 1/2 hour to drive between those points you still win by taking the car. While I agree that the new operators are expanding Mountain Creek (the old Vernon Valley ski area) still hasn't reached a point to warrant dedicated ski train service. The roadway between those points will be improved at some point regardless of train service.
Stockholm for the time being seems like the best terminus for normal passenger service. However, you are wrong regarding ski service. If the conventional passenger service is there, wouldnt it make sense to offer ski service as a value add? Not specifically talking about Mountain Creek, but what about the many resorts in PA? I read in an article once that a PA ski resort is going to shell out money to build a station on the cutoff line. To me, a commercial business would not be doing that if they didnt feel that it would be economically viable.
  by neroden
 
I'm all the way in Ithaca, NY, but I'd find this service useful -- if they made it fast enough.

Ithaca to NYC is slightly over 5 hours by bus (depending on time of day; 5 hours is the minimum). Driving a car into NYC is of course insane.

It's 1 1/2 to 2 hours from Ithaca to Scranton, along uncongested roads.
With a long term parking garage at Scranton, 3 hour service would be competitive, and any service under 3 hours would be a *travel time improvement* to NYC.

The Lackawanna Cutoff could easily capture most of the Southern Tier traffic to NYC. It's important to realize that this is basically an *intercity* line, and to make it as fast as possible. Stops in the Poconos should be minimized, should only hit areas which already have high demand for NYC travel, and should be located where the train has to slow down anyway.
  by Steve F45
 
neroden wrote:I'm all the way in Ithaca, NY, but I'd find this service useful -- if they made it fast enough.

Ithaca to NYC is slightly over 5 hours by bus (depending on time of day; 5 hours is the minimum). Driving a car into NYC is of course insane.

It's 1 1/2 to 2 hours from Ithaca to Scranton, along uncongested roads.
With a long term parking garage at Scranton, 3 hour service would be competitive, and any service under 3 hours would be a *travel time improvement* to NYC.

The Lackawanna Cutoff could easily capture most of the Southern Tier traffic to NYC. It's important to realize that this is basically an *intercity* line, and to make it as fast as possible. Stops in the Poconos should be minimized, should only hit areas which already have high demand for NYC travel, and should be located where the train has to slow down anyway.
If service was to go that far, would NJT be the operator? You couldn't have stops every few miles to haveit compete with bus or car. Speeds would have to be up there.

  by lensovet
 
well, according to NJT, It is assumed that NJ TRANSIT would operate the new service, including service to scranton.

  by Steve F45
 
lensovet wrote:well, according to NJT, It is assumed that NJ TRANSIT would operate the new service, including service to scranton.
I know that. But if service went further west like someon are asking/wishing for. On a njt yahoo group there was a newspaper article wondering if it could go as far as binghamton. If that was even possible and then giving a green light, who would operate that far north?

  by lensovet
 
just dug up some interesting info. namely, according to the ‘‘Federal Public Transportation Act of 2005’’, the following projects "are authorized for preliminary engineering for fiscal years 2005 through 2009":
- New Jersey Transit—Hudson Midtown Corridor
- New Jersey Transit—Northeast Corridor Trans-Hudson Commuter Rail Improvements
- New Jersey Transit—Morris/Essex/Boonton Trans-Hudson Commuter Rail Improvements
- New Jersey Transit—New York Susquehanna and Western RR Commuter Extension
- New Jersey Transit—Phillipsburg Extension
- New Jersey Transit—West Trenton Line Commuter Line Service Extension
- New Jersey-Pennsylvania Lackawanna Cutoff Rail Restoration
- New Jersey Urban Core
also, in the same bill, there's $120,000,000 authorized for Pennsylvania—New Jersey Lackawanna Cutoff Rail Restoration and language added to the Meadowlands/THE Tunnel projects that says they are to be linked to the Cutoff.
Last edited by lensovet on Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

  by Steve F45
 
i thought in the spring, the NYSW was axed off the list. And out of all that the meadowlands project is the only one underway.

  by lensovet
 
2005Vdub wrote:i thought in the spring, the NYSW was axed off the list. And out of all that the meadowlands project is the only one underway.
could be, this bill was passed in aug '05
  by neroden
 
Just to clarify, I was talking about driving (or taking the bus) from Ithaca to Scranton, and catching the train there; not about actual extensions of the railroad further west. Perhaps surprisingly, a 3-hour service from Scranton to NYC would make driving from Ithaca to Scranton to catch the train time-competitive with direct bus service to NYC. A 2 1/2 hour service would be definitively better than the direct bus service.

I suspect the catchment area of a fast Scranton-NYC service would include a lot of other quite distant places in upstate NY and northern PA who would find driving to Scranton and catching the train there more convenient than other routes to NYC. That wouldn't be commuter traffic, though, it would be business trip and pleasure trip traffic.

  by Steve F45
 
What kind of time would it take to go from scranton to AC? Just wondering if anyone from that area would go to AC if and when the cutoff is built then transfer maybe at SEC for the ac train.

  by Irish Chieftain
 
Trains to/from Scranton will not pass by Secaucus Junction.
  by henry6
 
Again: There has not been a definite answer as to who will operate service west of Stroudsburg. NJT is working with the local agencies to bring the service to fruition and probably operate the train to Stroudsburg but operating agreements have to be arranged west of there. It might be NJT but could also be contracted or bid out. It just has not been determined yet.

  by blockline4180
 
lensovet wrote:just dug up some interesting info. namely, according to the ‘‘Federal Public Transportation Act of 2005’’, the following projects "are authorized for preliminary engineering for fiscal years 2005 through 2009":
- New Jersey Transit—Hudson Midtown Corridor
- New Jersey Transit—Northeast Corridor Trans-Hudson Commuter Rail Improvements
- New Jersey Transit—Morris/Essex/Boonton Trans-Hudson Commuter Rail Improvements
- New Jersey Transit—New York Susquehanna and Western RR Commuter Extension
- New Jersey Transit—Phillipsburg Extension
- New Jersey Transit—West Trenton Line Commuter Line Service Extension
- New Jersey-Pennsylvania Lackawanna Cutoff Rail Restoration
- New Jersey Urban Core
also, in the same bill, there's $120,000,000 authorized for Pennsylvania—New Jersey Lackawanna Cutoff Rail Restoration and language added to the Meadowlands/THE Tunnel projects that says they are to be linked to the Cutoff.

Okay then! That clears things up for me! Lets say that they don't complete the Preliminary Engineering for the Cutoff until 2009, that leaves another 5 or so years for the Final Engineering and Construction phase... I say the Cutoff won't see trains until 2015 the earliest! It is amazing that stuff takes so long now with all the red tape gov't and politicians involved. If this were 1920 it would have taken half this time!! I'm sick and tired of being patient waiting for all these new lines to see service!! :(
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