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Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: lensovet, Kaback9, nick11a

  by asyouare405
 
blockline4180 wrote:
lensovet wrote:just dug up some interesting info. namely, according to the ‘‘Federal Public Transportation Act of 2005’’, the following projects "are authorized for preliminary engineering for fiscal years 2005 through 2009":
- New Jersey Transit—Hudson Midtown Corridor
- New Jersey Transit—Northeast Corridor Trans-Hudson Commuter Rail Improvements
- New Jersey Transit—Morris/Essex/Boonton Trans-Hudson Commuter Rail Improvements
- New Jersey Transit—New York Susquehanna and Western RR Commuter Extension
- New Jersey Transit—Phillipsburg Extension
- New Jersey Transit—West Trenton Line Commuter Line Service Extension
- New Jersey-Pennsylvania Lackawanna Cutoff Rail Restoration
- New Jersey Urban Core
also, in the same bill, there's $120,000,000 authorized for Pennsylvania—New Jersey Lackawanna Cutoff Rail Restoration and language added to the Meadowlands/THE Tunnel projects that says they are to be linked to the Cutoff.

Okay then! That clears things up for me! Lets say that they don't complete the Preliminary Engineering for the Cutoff until 2009, that leaves another 5 or so years for the Final Engineering and Construction phase... I say the Cutoff won't see trains until 2015 the earliest! It is amazing that stuff takes so long now with all the red tape gov't and politicians involved. If this were 1920 it would have taken half this time!! I'm sick and tired of being patient waiting for all these new lines to see service!! :(
could someone maybe explain the other ones(in a new thread?)

  by lensovet
 
blockline4180 wrote:
lensovet wrote:just dug up some interesting info. namely, according to the ‘‘Federal Public Transportation Act of 2005’’, the following projects "are authorized for preliminary engineering for fiscal years 2005 through 2009":
- New Jersey Transit—Hudson Midtown Corridor
- New Jersey Transit—Northeast Corridor Trans-Hudson Commuter Rail Improvements
- New Jersey Transit—Morris/Essex/Boonton Trans-Hudson Commuter Rail Improvements
- New Jersey Transit—New York Susquehanna and Western RR Commuter Extension
- New Jersey Transit—Phillipsburg Extension
- New Jersey Transit—West Trenton Line Commuter Line Service Extension
- New Jersey-Pennsylvania Lackawanna Cutoff Rail Restoration
- New Jersey Urban Core
also, in the same bill, there's $120,000,000 authorized for Pennsylvania—New Jersey Lackawanna Cutoff Rail Restoration and language added to the Meadowlands/THE Tunnel projects that says they are to be linked to the Cutoff.
Okay then! That clears things up for me! Lets say that they don't complete the Preliminary Engineering for the Cutoff until 2009, that leaves another 5 or so years for the Final Engineering and Construction phase... I say the Cutoff won't see trains until 2015 the earliest! It is amazing that stuff takes so long now with all the red tape gov't and politicians involved. If this were 1920 it would have taken half this time!! I'm sick and tired of being patient waiting for all these new lines to see service!! :(
i wouldn't be as pessimistic. i say this in part because 120 million (that's a decent sum of money btw) has already been allocated for the PA side of things, and prelim engineering (at least i don't think it would) won't eat up all that money. also, i don't see the point of allocating money now if it won't be used for a whole 4 years.
i do think, however, that this bill yet again highlights the fact that it is the NJ side that's dragging its feet....

ITS A GAME OF WAITING

  by henry6
 
Its a game of waiting. Government agencies upon government agencies upon goverment agencies, each with its own agenda, rules, regulations, and personalities, taking thier time to process and reporcess information before handing in on. Then, when decisions are made for funding, another set of delay mechanisms sets in which quickly overtakes all intiitative and flow of the game. NJT is right now getting the spotlight, not because of what they are not doing but because they are waiting for monies to be released by the Federal government for the next step. It was expected in June, but now probably not unitl January when the new government gets in.

  by northjerseybuff
 
Pocono Record
Revive Phoebe Snow rail line to NYC
By BEN GOTTFRIED
Empire State Passengers Association
December 10, 2006

Scranton to New York City rail service may be moving forward thanks to, interestingly, upstate New York.

Proponents of restoring passenger rail through northeast Pennsylvania have always considered the service a commuter-oriented project.

Perhaps we need to examine the wider significance of the route as a new environmentally friendly piece of the national transportation network. New York State seems to understand this and has come forward in two significant ways which suggest that they have a stake in rail service proposals being developed on the Scranton-New York City route of Phoebe Snow.

In January 2006 the New York State Senate task force on high-speed rail included, for the first time, the Syracuse-Binghamton-Scranton rail route in their rail system master plan map, calling the route a “corridor extension” worthy of further consideration. The significance here is the Amtrak connection at Syracuse and the integration of the new route into the national transportation network as a connecting route to New York City.

Amtrak service through Syracuse to New York City via Albany has passenger trains often mired in heavy freight traffic congestion. The CSX Transportation tracks shared by these “Empire Corridor” passenger trains are running at capacity now. A new route via Scranton to the Big Apple could relieve some of the pressure on the existing Amtrak-CSX route.

Train service on this new corridor would reintroduce the legendary Phoebe Snow passenger experience to the American public. The Phoebe Snow passenger train was the creation of the Lackawanna Railroad to promote passenger travel along its “route of scenic delight” between New York and Buffalo.

In support of expanding the role of rail service through Binghamton, New York’s Broome County has begun a study of Binghamton as a transportation hub. This new study will focus on trade and traffic flows through the greater Binghamton region. It will also examine what the infrastructure needs will be to restore a modern passenger rail service to the crucial Scranton-Binghamton section of the larger Syracuse to New York City route.

In preparation for the re-introduction of a rail service plan for this route, a new group, the New York Pennsylvania I-81 Rail Corridor committee, was called for. This new group formed in 2004 with the help of Pennsylvania railroad authorities in Lackawanna and Susquehanna counties, participating railroads, Greater Binghamton Coalition and a wide array of interest groups including the Empire State Passengers Association. Like the existing bi-state group which has advanced the Scranton- NYC proposal, this new group can assist in service beyond Scranton and add an intercity component to existing planning under way.

The addition of intercity passenger traffic to discussion of rail service to Scranton may add potential new funding resources, too.
For example, New York State rail service to upstate relies entirely on trains crossing the Hudson River in Albany and entry into Manhattan through the complex underground network to Grand Central or Penn. Station. Service via Scranton and New Jersey Transit’s Hoboken terminal offers a logical alternative rail route and new gateway point for New York at Binghamton, giving the project a homeland security angle.

The route through the Poconos does not rely on electric trains and underground facilities to access New York City, and the New Jersey Transit Terminal in Hoboken is the only rail terminal in New York City accessible by ferry. Simply stated, Hoboken’s role in the transportation network of New York City and its ability to serve as an intercity launching pad can no longer be over looked.

As multi-state rail corridor projects across the country emerge and compete for federal funding dollars, those with multiple benefits to the nation as a whole would logically be in the strongest position to gain necessary political support and approval of federal dollars. The current commuter-only focus of the Scranton to New York project limits the proposal to the Federal Transit Administration process. Intercity rail corridor projects have a wider array of public and private funding resources available at the state and federal level.

The challenge here lies with us and our elected representatives. We must ask for projects which promise to benefit our economic, security, and environmental agenda. We should pursue a transportation system here in the northeast serving the New York City region including the route of the legendary Phoebe Snow in the national rail transportation network.

Ben Gottfried is the Susquehanna region coordinator for the Empire State Passengers Association, a New York-based rail passenger advocacy group.
Moderator's Note: Please don't exclude the link to the story. Posts that do are subject to deletion. Thanks!

  by Steve F45
 
That's some interesting reading. I myself have wondered, what if Amtrak ran trains on here for long distances like Binghamton and Syracuse?

  by dave76
 
After reading this artical I'm beginning to foam lol. I always woundered why Amtrak wasn't involved either since it's basically long distance. If it wasn't for all the obliterated ROW portions in Indiana and Ohio, you could have NY/Chicago service reinstiuted. Anyway sounds like they came to their sences finally.

  by mhig9000
 
The point was raised as to whether there is a market for Scranton-NYC service and what that market is.

The answer of course is yes, or why would so many people (Santorum, Specter, Kanjorski, Lackawanna, Monroe, and Luzerne county officials), be talking about it/promising funding for it?

And for what the market is, just look at two things: the current Martz Bus schedule from Stroudsburg/Delaware Water Gap and Stroudsburg Park & Ride to NYC every weekday, and the growth of Stroudsburg.

Accouting for routes that stop at both places, there are around forty buses to NYC every weekday. Each bus can hold about 45-55 people, so if we assume that 75 percent of the seats are filled (which I would say is pretty close to being true, from my experience riding it from Wilkes-Barre to NYC and back a dozen times a year), that's about 1,500 people back and forth everyday on rather slow uncomfortable buses, I would assume that this number could potentially double if the proposed rail line was faster (the bus takes around 1½ hours) and cheaper. we could probably expect more passengers from many of the other proposed stops, although at first Scranton itself may only provide passengers for weekend shopping trips, etc.

Secondly, Monroe County (the county Stroudsburg is in), increased its population by nearly 50% between 1990 and 2000, making it the second-fastest growing county in Pennsylvania according to the Monroe County Website. As a person who has spent almost my entire life living in NEPA, I can tell you that it is slowly becoming a partial suburb of NYC (this is much more true of the more eastern areas than of the western parts). Although there are not many commuters from farther west right now, development is booming the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area. National chains were rare until the mid-90s; now we have new ones popping up every day. There is also a new mall under construction (the fourth major mall between the two cities), as well as countless other developments (the seven-year-old Wachovia Arena & minor league hockey team, the AAA farm team for the Yankees, various ski resorts, etc.) which make it much more appealing to suburbanites than it has been in the recent past.

I think with this kind of potential, and continued pressure from the PA side, NJT won't be able to drag its feet for much longer.

FIRST...

  by henry6
 
First, NJT is waiting on the release of Federal funds to continue; they are expected in January.

Second, Amtrak is not involved. In fact, as I have stated, there is no designated or contracted operator of trains west of Stroudsburg at this point in time. Amtrak could be the contracted operator, but so could NJT or anybody else who bids on the service contract when the time comes. And right now that could be service just between Stroudsburg and Scranton.

Third, prospective service west of Scranton is in the hands of a very informal but dedicated group of people from both northern Pennsyvania and, more importantly, from the Southern Tier of NY (mianly Broome County at this point, but with some from Chemung-Steuben and from Cortland-Syracuse); local, state, and federal government officials and office holders and agencies along with businessmen and rail proponants (passenger and freight) are involved. The present most important aim is to reestablish a passenger rail link with New York City and this is the most promising prospece; where, if anyplace, west or north of Binghamton right now is mere speculation but a lot of options could be put on the table in the future.

  by NJTRailfan
 
I heard that with PA signing a bill allowing Casino Gambling to occur that the project might be in jeopardy. That's what I've been told by the conductors and engineers who worked my two local Dover-Hoboken-Dover trains that I took day before yesterday. They grumbled because a lot of those guys live in East Stroudsburg, Henryville, Pocono Summit, Analomink and the other towns that would be on or close to the Cutoff.

I hope it would not but then again you'll never know what Trenton is up to until it's announced here or the pages of the Star-Ledger. I heard the casinos in AC doesn't want the rail line and is doing behind the scenes stuff to pressure Trenton to not let this project happen. Can anyone confirm?

  by Irish Chieftain
 
Why would the development of gambling institutions threaten the Cutoff? The purpose of the project is for commuting, not for transporting gamblers—the imperative does not change with such prospects on the board, which themselves have been talked about for years.

No, the greater threat to the Cutoff funding is stuff like THE Tunnel, and other boondoggles like the NJT copy of the former Amtrak NYP-Atlantic City service—and these projects also threaten the funding of other NJT service expansions and re-expansions.

  by Jtgshu
 
the only way I can see it hurtin g the project in anyway is if NJ gets ticked off with PA allowing gambling and creating a new competitor to Atlantic City. NJ and PA aren't the best of freinds right now, with the whole dredging war going on with the Delaware River, and now the gambling starting on the west banks of the Delaware. NJ might not be as willing to move as quickly as PA wants on the Cutoff now, mainly in spite of PA

PA CASINO GAMBLING

  by henry6
 
PA casino gambling was a real stumbling block to maintaing the Cut Off to begin with...Atlantic City interests in NJ allowed them to look away from CR's picking up the rail acoording to some people. But that was years ago and the attending problems of congestion and pollution from routes I80 and I78 trumps (no pun intended) the PA casino vs Atlantic City arguement. I would even, just conjecture and speculation on my part, say that Warrington's move to work with Atlantic City for direct NY service and Atlantic City's desire to cooperate, is part and parcel from the PA casino laws directly and the Cut Off project indirectly.

  by northjerseybuff
 
Judging that the current status of the cutoff is in the hands of the feds and was submitted months ago, I don't see how the casinos would effect this project at this point. The casino deal/news was very recent, and noone knew what was going to happen or where they would be placed.
Ironic though that Bethlehem is getting a museum and huge Sands casino..I wonder if NJT would think twice going to P-Burg or across the delaware at that point as well?? Again, though this all came about very recently and I don;t think at this point it can hurt/help the cutoff. Maybe down the road NJ politicians can scoff and complain about it helping the competition..but lets cross that bridge when we get to it.
On a side note, I do believe that the casinos will only have slots..no table games..so its not quite going to be AC or Vegas initially

NO, THE CASINOS IN PA ARE NOT

  by henry6
 
No, the casinos in PA are not the problem they were, as I stated. Back 10, 15, 20 or so years the possiblity of casinos in the Poconos were seen as a threat to Atlantic City. That's why no one cared about doing anything concerning rail passenger service west of High Bridge and, at that time, Netcong; even Port Jervis service was saved by Metro North and nothing initiated by NJT. So when the Cut Off got cut off by Conrail, no one seemed to care. But today's needs are different and rail passenger service to the Delaware River and west from North Jersey has to be accomplished for all the reasons that have been stated. I just add that, in my opinion, the as the Cut Off project develops and there is an increasing clamor for extending rail passenger service to Phillipsburg and west on the old CNJ alignments, that Warrington's move to get direct NY to Atlantic City service helps placate any opposition which might arise out of Atlantic City. If so, it is a very wise move by him. But I don't believe it is the reason for ACL service; it is a service that should be able to stand on its own and not need outside supporters.

Re: FIRST...

  by geoffand
 
henry6 wrote:First, NJT is waiting on the release of Federal funds to continue; they are expected in January.
Last I heard there was "no movement" on this project. What does having funds released do any good on a project that is currently constipated? What is it we are waiting on now, environmental assessment? NJT was supposed to submit a proposal for funding and never did, correct?

Someone clue me in, NJT isn't budging with much information. So much for transparency...

Here is a response (10/4/06) from NJT on my inquiry:
We are replying to your feedback of 9/23/2006 regarding subject: Lackawanna Cutoff.

Thank you for your interest. There has been no movement toward funding this project and the environmental assessment has not yet been completed. If the project goes forward, it will be single track with passing sidings. The configuration of the track, especially through Pennsylvania, does not lend itself to speeds of 100 miles per hour, at this point the top speed of the track has yet to be determined. The same is true for the estimated cost of the project.

NJ TRANSIT appreciates your interest. We suggest you visit us online periodically for updated information.

Thank you for contacting NJ Transit.

Sincerely,
NJ Transit Customer Service Team
Also, northjerseybuff, you never did post the letter you received from NJT. See quote below. I'd like to see the letter. I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'd just like to see the wording in the letter.
northjerseybuff wrote:Thats an absolute LIE...They DID submit the study on June 1st..I will post my official letter from the NJT board of directors..I also discussed the matter with NEPA officials when I met about saving slateford tower, which is on the cutoff. I will be posting my letter later today when I can dig it up
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