VRE Speed & Dwell Times

VRE Manassas Line is scheduled for
46m MSS to ALX
25m ALX to WAS
1h11m seems, well, slow.

Amtrak NERs and LDs are scheduled for a median time of
32m MSS to ALX (or 36m if they stop at Burke)
23m ALX to WAS
Here, Amtrak seems slow considering it runs express vs VRE's stops at Crystal City & L'Enfant.

So
MSS to ALX, VRE is adding 14 minutes to stop 4 intermediate times 2m30s per stop
ALX to WAS, VRE adds only 2 minutes but manages to stop twice, or 1m per stop

It seems like neither railroad is really doing their best at keeping up the pace and having short dwells.
Is there anything that can be done to speed this up?

NER 66 manages MSS-WAS in :59. The Crescent takes 1:22. (Cardinal 1:09).

Even more strangely, NER 66 takes 40 minutes to do MSS-ALX as a less crowded train (and will a faster total ALX-WAS time) while NER 176 takes just 36 minutes to do MSS-ALX even with a stop at Burke Center (BCV) that 66 doesn't make.

There are a couple of things going on: Amtrak is building in buffer time so a train that may have been delayed a little by CSX or VRE can maintain its slot north of Washington; different trains may also have different schedules to avoid conflicts with other Amtrak, VRE, and CSX services coming off the old RF&P; there may be some slow orders for significant projects.

There are projects to allow speed increases including adding a new bridge across the Potomac, adding a forth track in DC, adding a forth track in Alexandria, creating a flyover for VRE trains to go from west side of old RF&P to east side without conflicting with Amtrak and CSX trains (while Manassas bound trains won't use the flyover, they'll benefit from other trains being able to speed up. See https://vapassengerrailauthority.org/wp ... scaled.jpg

Another thing that could be done (but doesn't seem to be on the books yet) would be to introduce level boarding for VRE trains (at one point VRE used some Sounder trainsets, but for some reason went with Gallery cars instead of bi-level cars after that).

Some of the schedule slop may be from an apparent limit of only one diesel train at a time in the 1st street tunnel even though it is 2 main tracks. A ventilation problem?? Has anyone here waited at either entrance of tunnel for an opposite train to exit the tunnel?

RandallW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:40 pm Another thing that could be done (but doesn't seem to be on the books yet) would be to introduce level boarding for VRE trains (at one point VRE used some Sounder trainsets, but for some reason went with Gallery cars instead of bi-level cars after that).

Probably because they were cheaper.

west point wrote:Some of the schedule slop may be from an apparent limit of only one diesel train at a time in the 1st street tunnel even though it is 2 main tracks. A ventilation problem?? Has anyone here waited at either entrance of tunnel for an opposite train to exit the tunnel?

I won't discount ventilation, but also remember it's routing. From south to north it's going under one House of Representative's office building, between Congress and the Supreme Court, between two Senate Office buildings, past the US Capitol Police HQ, and then into Union Station. Wanna bet Homeland Security had a hand in that limitation?

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:06 am

RandallW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:40 pm Another thing that could be done (but doesn't seem to be on the books yet) would be to introduce level boarding for VRE trains (at one point VRE used some Sounder trainsets, but for some reason went with Gallery cars instead of bi-level cars after that).

Probably because they were cheaper.

west point wrote:Some of the schedule slop may be from an apparent limit of only one diesel train at a time in the 1st street tunnel even though it is 2 main tracks. A ventilation problem?? Has anyone here waited at either entrance of tunnel for an opposite train to exit the tunnel?

I won't discount ventilation, but also remember it's routing. From south to north it's going under one House of Representative's office building, between Congress and the Supreme Court, between two Senate Office buildings, past the US Capitol Police HQ, and then into Union Station. Wanna bet Homeland Security had a hand in that limitation?

Do we know if pre 911, two trains could be in the tunnel at the same time?

If the tunnel is the constraint, I think it's ventilation and/or the cross over just inside the north end of the tunnel (I do recall that being on a train stopped in the tunnel gets smelly as the cars begin to pull in exhaust fumes).

I think the constraint is more L'Enfant Station has a single side platform with only access to western track in the tunnel and every VRE train stops there (so the tunnel is basically two single track tunnels--one used by VRE and one used by Amtrak).

It would be very interesting to know the history of the 1st street railroad tunnel. There were the "smokeless" steam engines of the SOU RR that were exchanged at ALX. As well what did the RF&P, C&O, and Old Dominion RRs do with their steam engines? Guess early diesels were added to the trains at ALX.

If Amtrak can add CAT in the tunnels and in future use ALC-42Es in the tunnels then that could possibility more than double capacity of the tunnels.

I've seen photographs of the south portal showing that the northbound (B&O position-light) signal could only display Stop and Approach-Slow; thus, no proceed indication could be displayed unless the home signal at the tunnel exit was displaying at least Slow-Approach. With no Approach indication possible, a train could not be signaled to enter the tunnel unless it had a clear route directly to a platform at Union Station. I'm sure that arrangement goes back to steam days, and I've seen a head-end video showing such signals governing both tracks.

Where could we find the track class / max speeds between Crystal City and Manassas/Fredericksburg and are there any known projects to increase them?

I mean, there's lots of 3rd/4th track in the works Crystal City to Fredericksburg but is any speed/dwell related?

ANd then I haven't seen anything about any work on NS to Manassas.

Maybe Amtrak takes too long to service the Alexandria station delaying VRE. I don't like it when VRE has to crawl very slowly from Potomac Yard to Alexandria because of Amtrak

RandallW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:40 pm There are a couple of things going on: Amtrak is building in buffer time so a train that may have been delayed a little by CSX or VRE can maintain its slot north of Washington; different trains may also have different schedules to avoid conflicts with other Amtrak, VRE, and CSX services coming off the old RF&P; there may be some slow orders for significant projects.

There are projects to allow speed increases including adding a new bridge across the Potomac, adding a forth track in DC, adding a forth track in Alexandria, creating a flyover for VRE trains to go from west side of old RF&P to east side without conflicting with Amtrak and CSX trains (while Manassas bound trains won't use the flyover, they'll benefit from other trains being able to speed up. See https://vapassengerrailauthority.org/wp ... scaled.jpg

Another thing that could be done (but doesn't seem to be on the books yet) would be to introduce level boarding for VRE trains (at one point VRE used some Sounder trainsets, but for some reason went with Gallery cars instead of bi-level cars after that).

VRE has bought 21 bi-level cars, not gallery cars.
I think the reason they chose gallery cars is because they liked the old ones that had bought from Chicago. Only 3 transit agencies in America still use gallery cars

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:06 am

RandallW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:40 pm Another thing that could be done (but doesn't seem to be on the books yet) would be to introduce level boarding for VRE trains (at one point VRE used some Sounder trainsets, but for some reason went with Gallery cars instead of bi-level cars after that).

Probably because they were cheaper.

west point wrote:Some of the schedule slop may be from an apparent limit of only one diesel train at a time in the 1st street tunnel even though it is 2 main tracks. A ventilation problem?? Has anyone here waited at either entrance of tunnel for an opposite train to exit the tunnel?

I won't discount ventilation, but also remember it's routing. From south to north it's going under one House of Representative's office building, between Congress and the Supreme Court, between two Senate Office buildings, past the US Capitol Police HQ, and then into Union Station. Wanna bet Homeland Security had a hand in that limitation?