Train Consist Length

gamer4616 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:14 pm

eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:29 am I have to wonder if energy price increases might also be behind reducing consist sizes. Even government has a budget.

I believe its more about being able to build up the amount of trains needed in the new schedules combined with the added flexibility of manipulating equipment to various branches.

There are many places where a 12 car train wont fit.

10 car trains can fit virtually everywhere. The main exceptions would be West Hempstead, and most of Brooklyn (All VD Yard tracks are 8 car capacity).


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so those of us who ride lines where 12 car trains are filled have to suffer? They have managed to figure out how to run 12 car consists all this time.. they can continue to figure it out and stop being lazy

Considering the amount of service there advertising and the fact ridership is not back to pre Covid levels I don’t think this would be an issue.
What your average rider don’t understand and with the exception a decent and of trains you don’t need the amount of 12 car trains LIRR currently runs.
As with everything there are exceptions and unforeseen eventualities that may develop.
But if you increase service and reduce headways by default you don’t need the longer train sets as you replace them with the additional service options.

On a simple to understand example.
The west Hempstead scoots can run comfortably with 4 cars,
You run a few rush hour trains with 6 or 8 but the scoots only need 2-4 cars MAX

Similarly the same for the odd hour Brooklyn scoots.
there will be times of the day a 4 car consist will suffice.

Currently LIRR is running 12 car 1100’ trains for NOTHING,
I’ve seen many trains going with 12, that needed 4-8 cars MAX open to the public, but went with 12!!!! This is dangerous in itself.

There are other factors such as Dailey inspections and manipulations that aren’t up for discussion here, that also play a role in This.

No need to get all twisted.

geico wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:12 am so those of us who ride lines where 12 car trains are filled have to suffer? They have managed to figure out how to run 12 car consists all this time.. they can continue to figure it out and stop being lazy

Well... if you're riding on a line with 12 car trains and it suddenly drops to 10 cars that are standing room, one of two things will happen....

1) People will stand like they have to do on other trains that don't have 12 cars... (had to stand all the way from NYP to Wantagh more than once...)

2) People will adjust their schedules and take a later or earlier train....

geico wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:12 am so those of us who ride lines where 12 car trains are filled have to suffer? They have managed to figure out how to run 12 car consists all this time.. they can continue to figure it out and stop being lazy

This is an effective ~211 seat reduction from every peak Ronkonkoma train. All peak Ronkonkoma trains will be more crowded than they already are.

The Ronkonkoma Branch trains currently have maximum 12 car length trains containing on average the highest number of passengers per train of all LIRR Branches (see the LIRR 2019 Ridership Book pages 10 and 12, screenshots below.) The reduction in car length will ensure each train will be containing standees.

While the operating improvements afforded by universal 10 car length for peak trains may be a worthwhile achievement, the crowding is certainly a direct negative impact that will be felt by everyone aboard these trains.

LIRR 2019 Ridership Book
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21A ... 15&o=OneUp
see pg. 10 & 12

According to Railway Age, LIRR is increasing the number of daily trains by 41%. Wouldn't more trains mean less passengers per train?

jamestrains1 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:43 pm While the operating improvements afforded by universal 10 car length for peak trains may be a worthwhile achievement, the crowding is certainly a direct negative impact that will be felt by everyone aboard these trains.

Nah, it will really only be felt by those without a seat. Those with a seat will continue to sleep, read or play with their phones...

RandallW wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:15 am According to Railway Age, LIRR is increasing the number of daily trains by 41%. Wouldn't more trains mean less passengers per train?

That seems to be the case. Higher frequency and perhaps more express or limited stop services will definitely spread the peaks across multiple trains. The Ronkonkoma branch was specifically called out for increased frequency thanks to the third track.

https://new.mta.info/press-release/lirr ... ing-of-gcm

I'd think that opening up GCM may also take some pressure off the current 12 car trains. Right now, the draft schedules show 6-8 trains from both NYP and GCM to Ronkonkoma during the evening peak...

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:46 pm

geico wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:12 am so those of us who ride lines where 12 car trains are filled have to suffer? They have managed to figure out how to run 12 car consists all this time.. they can continue to figure it out and stop being lazy

Well... if you're riding on a line with 12 car trains and it suddenly drops to 10 cars that are standing room, one of two things will happen....

1) People will stand like they have to do on other trains that don't have 12 cars... (had to stand all the way from NYP to Wantagh more than once...)

2) People will adjust their schedules and take a later or earlier train....

So trains that are showing Orange and Red in TrainTime now that are 12 cars go to 10 cars, causing even more issues. For the amount of money people pay for Zone 9 and Zone 10, standing is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

later or earlier how? when GCT opens, the train schedule to KO gets worse. Along with the random trains only going to Brentwood (WHere are they going after? THey arent turning there based on the schedule). Run them to Ronkonkoma and stop the MNRR style crap. IF they want to start a train there, maybe thats OK, but to end trains there and have them run empty to KO is stupid.

eolesen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:42 pm

jamestrains1 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:43 pm While the operating improvements afforded by universal 10 car length for peak trains may be a worthwhile achievement, the crowding is certainly a direct negative impact that will be felt by everyone aboard these trains.

Nah, it will really only be felt by those without a seat. Those with a seat will continue to sleep, read or play with their phones...

RandallW wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:15 am According to Railway Age, LIRR is increasing the number of daily trains by 41%. Wouldn't more trains mean less passengers per train?

That seems to be the case. Higher frequency and perhaps more express or limited stop services will definitely spread the peaks across multiple trains. The Ronkonkoma branch was specifically called out for increased frequency thanks to the third track.

https://new.mta.info/press-release/lirr ... ing-of-gcm

I'd think that opening up GCM may also take some pressure off the current 12 car trains. Right now, the draft schedules show 6-8 trains from both NYP and GCM to Ronkonkoma during the evening peak...

The draft schedule is silly.... Between 4-5pm there are 8 trains to the KO branch from GCT and Penn, 1 ends in Farmingdale, helping no one from Wyandanch east. 2 others die in Brentwood for no reason. that leaves 5 trains.

3 are from GCT at reasonable times 409, 425, and 454.
2 are from Penn at 401 and 434.

The 401 is useless for people who get out at 4. This is the over crowded 355 that exists now
The 434 will be overcrowded.
The next Penn train is at 504... What???

Why is there this imbalance? CI and KO people get hosed. Who wants to transfer in Brentwood? Questionable neighborhood plus its still Zone 10 isnt going to make people go there to catch trains.

The 434 will be overcrowded.
The next Penn train is at 504... What???

If it's me, I just take the next train to Jamaica and transfer for the Ronkonkoma train. All trains are stopping at Jamaica.

Between 4-5pm there are 8 trains to the KO branch from GCT and Penn, 1 ends in Farmingdale, helping no one from Wyandanch east. 2 others die in Brentwood for no reason. that leaves 5 trains.

There are currently 4 trains to Ronkonkoma between 4pm-5pm. 1 from Brooklyn and 3 from Penn. The extra trains should help with crowding?


I'm sure that if trains are crushed, they will try to alleviate the loading. Looks can be deceiving at times. People would rather stand in the vestibule, then sit in the middle of a 3 seater. Certain branches load at the front or rear, while the middle of the train has seating.

Right... because people want to go and take non guaranteed transfer at Jamaica......
After a day at work, the last thing I want to do is change at Jamaica when I ride the Main Line.

The LIRR is as slow as mollasses moving uphill in the winter at making adjustments. It'll be at least 3 months till the next pick for employees before any changes happen. They dont even respond when they need to. The 624 KO train is the example now.... its been gone since COVID and it needed to be put back. the gap between 608 and 639 is too much and trains are SRO at deer park in the mornings.

gamer4616 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:00 pm

The 434 will be overcrowded.
The next Penn train is at 504... What???

If it's me, I just take the next train to Jamaica and transfer for the Ronkonkoma train. All trains are stopping at Jamaica.

Between 4-5pm there are 8 trains to the KO branch from GCT and Penn, 1 ends in Farmingdale, helping no one from Wyandanch east. 2 others die in Brentwood for no reason. that leaves 5 trains.

There are currently 4 trains to Ronkonkoma between 4pm-5pm. 1 from Brooklyn and 3 from Penn. The extra trains should help with crowding?


I'm sure that if trains are crushed, they will try to alleviate the loading. Looks can be deceiving at times. People would rather stand in the vestibule, then sit in the middle of a 3 seater. Certain branches load at the front or rear, while the middle of the train has seating.

The time gap in the Penn trains is stupid. Right now you have 409 (recent addition, use to end at FDALE), 423, 451, 501.

Penn will soon have 401, 434, 504. 33 minute gap at rush hour makes no sense, esp where there are 3 trains from GCT in the same timeframe.

Geico, I've come to the conclusion that you probably won't be happy with any form of change....

If the new leadership over MNRR/LIRR is going after some sacred cows on scheduling and looking to improve overall fleet utilization, perhaps combining the management wasn't such a bad idea after all.

Note that LIRR schedules to NYP are designed with the assumption that one of the East River tunnels will not be available for the next few years.

With those limits there is still a train from NYP to Jamaica every 3-4 minutes between 4 and 5. If you are willing to change trains, there's a train about every 10 minutes from Jamaica to Ronkonkom (which is, BTW, an increase in service between Jamaica to Ronkonkom at rush hour). Never having experienced a commute by public transit that did not require at least one change (between modes or within a single mode) or ended with a walk or a bicycle ride in lieu of other last-mile public transit options, I can't imagine that declaring service requiring a change is not service is a sustainable way to approach getting anywhere unless you are willing to walk or cycle everywhere and reject any activity outside that realm.

(I'm lucky--I have always (for 47 years now) lived and worked within 400 yards of a city bus stop, and for the majority of that with a bus stop < 50 yards from the front door of my home and have had the pleasure of working a pleasant 40 minute walk from work--or a 10 minute bicycle ride, 4 minute single seat bus ride + 20 minute walk, or 56 minute two seat bus ride + crossing the street in front of my house if the weather is really bad--for the past 12 years.)

eolesen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:51 am Geico, I've come to the conclusion that you probably won't be happy with any form of change....

If the new leadership over MNRR/LIRR is going after some sacred cows on scheduling and looking to improve overall fleet utilization, perhaps combining the management wasn't such a bad idea after all.

I;m not happy that my commute becomes longer on both ends under the guise that more trains are running and it makes it easier for all.

I have to leave earlier now to arrive at the same time........ Leave later from work to get home later.
You know.. quality of life.
Have a new schedule make sense..

Not Penn-GCT-GCT-GCT-Penn-GCT-GCT-Penn the order of trains leaving Manhattan.

Add on losing a pair of cars per train and look at it from that end.

Change is fine.... not idiotic change. They add trains back to the sacred PW line after public outcry..... it can be done

RandallW wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 1:26 pm Note that LIRR schedules to NYP are designed with the assumption that one of the East River tunnels will not be available for the next few years.

With those limits there is still a train from NYP to Jamaica every 3-4 minutes between 4 and 5. If you are willing to change trains, there's a train about every 10 minutes from Jamaica to Ronkonkom (which is, BTW, an increase in service between Jamaica to Ronkonkom at rush hour). Never having experienced a commute by public transit that did not require at least one change (between modes or within a single mode) or ended with a walk or a bicycle ride in lieu of other last-mile public transit options, I can't imagine that declaring service requiring a change is not service is a sustainable way to approach getting anywhere unless you are willing to walk or cycle everywhere and reject any activity outside that realm.

(I'm lucky--I have always (for 47 years now) lived and worked within 400 yards of a city bus stop, and for the majority of that with a bus stop < 50 yards from the front door of my home and have had the pleasure of working a pleasant 40 minute walk from work--or a 10 minute bicycle ride, 4 minute single seat bus ride + 20 minute walk, or 56 minute two seat bus ride + crossing the street in front of my house if the weather is really bad--for the past 12 years.)

IF the connections were guarenteed that would be one thing....... now you have changes where you could have ended being later on the same train you could have left Penn on and with the chance of no seating on it.