MBTA Bus Fleet Electrification

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:41 pm Ah yes.... maintaining legacy captive transit is such a better option than moving transit to where the people and demand might actually be....

As opposed to using that existing infrastructure to charge buses with all-day operational capacity but can also run beyond the wires? Nothing like watching the T spend millions to rip out and replace what is in effect a wide-area charging system, to spend millions more on a still not quite ready for prime time battery system which introduces significant limitations on the fleet (like needing to return to the garage to charge every 4-6 hours).

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:41 pm Ah yes.... maintaining legacy captive transit is such a better option than moving transit to where the people and demand might actually be....

I believe there is a strong attraction for people to live and work along a fixed transit infrastructure system of some type because of the security of knowing that it's probably always going to be there. Lots of development along the Greenline Extension as an example.

bostontrainguy wrote:

BandA wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:42 pm Should cancel any bus routes where the average speed is less than 10MPH, but that's just me...

If you apply that rule then the entire new Greenline Extension to Union would be axed.

As would the E line beyond Brigham Circle where the trolleys are only allowed 10mph by the T.

octr202 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:31 am Nothing like watching the T spend millions to rip out and replace what is in effect a wide-area charging system, to spend millions more on a still not quite ready for prime time battery system which introduces significant limitations on the fleet (like needing to return to the garage to charge every 4-6 hours).

I'm not an electrical engineer, but I suspect a short cable is always going to be more efficient than relying on trolley pole contacts and a system of substations needed to energize the wire, not to mention the cost of maintaining the wire itself.

Battery range floor I've been hearing is in the 200-250 mile range. I don't think they'll be returning to charge every 4 hours. Probably closer to 8-10 hours.

Performance report of 60 foot battery buses of the T as of October 2020 and winter range challenges report:

https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/file ... ible_0.pdf

https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/file ... ssible.pdf

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:41 pm Ah yes.... maintaining legacy captive transit is such a better option than moving transit to where the people and demand might actually be....

You mean a system that just about every major city in the world uses? And you have obviously never rode the 71 or 73 if you think there isn't any demand in that area.

eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:47 am

octr202 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:31 am Nothing like watching the T spend millions to rip out and replace what is in effect a wide-area charging system, to spend millions more on a still not quite ready for prime time battery system which introduces significant limitations on the fleet (like needing to return to the garage to charge every 4-6 hours).

I'm not an electrical engineer, but I suspect a short cable is always going to be more efficient than relying on trolley pole contacts and a system of substations needed to energize the wire, not to mention the cost of maintaining the wire itself.

Battery range floor I've been hearing is in the 200-250 mile range. I don't think they'll be returning to charge every 4 hours. Probably closer to 8-10 hours.

It's the charging time, combined with the duty cycles of transit buses. Under electric operation, many of the trolleybuses used on the 71/73 were in service for periods of up to 15 hours a day, leading to huge operational efficiencies. The operators changed out, but the vehicles stayed in service.

Meanwhile, as also posted here, the T even admitted not that long ago that their first trials have produced results much less favorable than what manufacturers claim. Similarly, RIPTA has also been testing BEBs, and found that typical useful range is only about 40-60% of what manufacturers claim. The T seems to have based its decision that "BEBs can work on the 71/73" on manufacturer claims, not any real-world evidence.

RIPTA was also the latest to point out that weather conditions have a huge impact on BEB range, and not just in the cold. They said they suffered a 30% decrease in range when temperatures were below 40F or above 90F. Diesel heaters can help with the former, but not the latter.

https://www.ctps.org/data/calendar/pdfs ... tation.pdf

Also big batteries are really heavy; Look at the (gasoline) fuel economy of a hybrid vehicle (with a small battery) and the fuel economy of the same model plug-in-hybrid vehicle. Much worse. So we can expect a battery bus to be much much heavier than a trackless trolley. And the batteries will definitely not last 20+ years.

typesix wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:05 am

bostontrainguy wrote:

BandA wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:42 pm Should cancel any bus routes where the average speed is less than 10MPH, but that's just me...

If you apply that rule then the entire new Greenline Extension to Union would be axed.

As would the E line beyond Brigham Circle where the trolleys are only allowed 10mph by the T.

Brigham Circle is street running under bad conditions. I would expect 20 or 25mph speed limit, with 10mph average, not too much worse than an automobile in that area! But 10mph MAS is not acceptable.

10MPH on the brand-new multi-billion$ GLX? On a grade-separated former railroad line? You're pulling my leg. But if true then just shut it down.

As a child I remember 6MPH speed limit signs near science park, but that was on a 1910 viaduct or even older track! At least I was traveling during Dime Time!

I can pedal a bicycle faster than 10MPH. The rail-trail folks are always looking for slow track to remove...

Six MPH on the viaduct near Science Park? That was because of the drawbridge, which had all of its hardware without periodic preventive maintenance in place making for a rough ride and dewirements at speed.

As far as bad street operation goes there are some new in street lines in other cities with the streetcars in the right lane, held up by cars being parked. If the operator can't blithely and confidently reach the road overall speed limit when the way looks clear then the streetcar line was badly designed.

BandA wrote: ↑Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:22 am Brigham Circle is street running under bad conditions. I would expect 20 or 25mph speed limit, with 10mph average, not too much worse than an automobile in that area! But 10mph MAS is not acceptable.

10MPH on the brand-new multi-billion$ GLX? On a grade-separated former railroad line? You're pulling my leg. But if true then just shut it down.

As a child I remember 6MPH speed limit signs near science park, but that was on a 1910 viaduct or even older track! At least I was traveling during Dime Time!

I can pedal a bicycle faster than 10MPH. The rail-trail folks are always looking for slow track to remove...

The E Line in the street on Huntington Avenue was recently totally rebuilt. It is not operating "under bad conditions". The T wants to be able to blame the operators for any incident that occurs because they will probably be moving over 10 mph when something bad happens.

As far as the GLX, the ride is excruciatingly slow almost the entire way with ridiculously slow speed limits and even an occasional stop sign thrown in. Paving the thing and running buses like in Chelsea would have been faster and a lot cheaper.

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:19 amThe E Line in the street on Huntington Avenue was recently totally rebuilt. It is not operating "under bad conditions". The T wants to be able to blame the operators for any incident that occurs because they will probably be moving over 10 mph when something bad happens.

NAILED it!

The bad conditions I was thinking about on South Huntington were mostly traffic congestion. I remember seeing a LRV or Type 7 at Brigham Circle that could not proceed for 5+ minutes due to a parked car. Something like that should get a photograph and a $200 fine by mail, and it probably wouldn't happen again! I think there were very slow speeds in the central subway area...you can basically walk along Washington or Tremont St & it is about the same time as the train. Bicycle paths are time competitive with buses in urban areas....

I'm surprised that LRVs don't have cameras, for automatic ticketing.

eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:47 am I'm not an electrical engineer, but I suspect a short cable is always going to be more efficient than relying on trolley pole contacts and a system of substations needed to energize the wire, not to mention the cost of maintaining the wire itself.

I am an electrical engineer, and batteries on their best day will always be less efficient than a direct wired connection of any kind.