Why is a "Penalty Brake Application" Called a "Penalty" App

Please don't FLAME me if this has been asked and answered before, but, Why is a "Penalty brake Application" called a PENALTY application??? Is it because the penalty is having to stop and recharge the brake up again, or because the crew gets the penalty of "Time Off" if it happens??? I had always wondered the origin of the term, and tried to do a search on the topic and never got an answer.

Again sorry if it is a STUPID question...

nobody gets time of for a penalty application, it is called a penalty application cause its not recoverable till train is absolutly stopped.

I was being sarcastic about the "Time Off" comment. What I meant by it was that you may get a few days suspension for a rules violation such as passing a STOP signal or exceeding the maximum speed.

n2cbo wrote:I was being sarcastic about the "Time Off" comment. What I meant by it was that you may get a few days suspension for a rules violation such as passing a STOP signal or exceeding the maximum speed.

Actually, a stop signal violation has a minimun of 30 days on the street. As for speeding, it depends.

DutchRailnut wrote:nobody gets time of for a penalty application, it is called a penalty application cause its not recoverable till train is absolutly stopped.

Sorry, but you do NOT have to absolutely stop. A penalty is "penalizing" you for inaction as an operator. Did you forget to acknowledge the alertor, cab signal or train stop? Did you overspeed? You can recover a penalty, by moving to suppression, going to idle, recover the pcs and resume operation. It's done daily on Amtrak. You have to stop to recover an emergency application, but it's not physically necessary to do it, for a penalty. There's a reason the suppression notch is now before the full service notch. It's done so you can suppress, and recover, without the full service application, so you can continue to run without stopping.

Speaking of penalty applications, I remember a story when I worked at MTA last summer. It was a morning of hell for commuters as two MARC trains both suffered penalty applications at CP Bridge (I think) north of BWI and could not recover. An Amtrak train was sent to rescue them and it to suffered a penalty application but it was able to recover. It took all it could and left, and thankfully it was a day the Cardinal ran, so it was able to clean up the rest of the mess.

I never heard exactly what happened, though the leading stories were A.) The cab dropped from clear to stop w/o an intermediary signal and there wasn't enough time B.) The cab circuit malfunctioned and it just happened to expose a problem with the two engines.

Just thought I'd share a case in which a penalty application was not the operators fault.

GOLDEN-ARM wrote:

DutchRailnut wrote:nobody gets time of for a penalty application, it is called a penalty application cause its not recoverable till train is absolutly stopped.

Sorry, but you do NOT have to absolutely stop. A penalty is "penalizing" you for inaction as an operator. Did you forget to acknowledge the alertor, cab signal or train stop? Did you overspeed? You can recover a penalty, by moving to suppression, going to idle, recover the pcs and resume operation. It's done daily on Amtrak. You have to stop to recover an emergency application, but it's not physically necessary to do it, for a penalty. There's a reason the suppression notch is now before the full service notch. It's done so you can suppress, and recover, without the full service application, so you can continue to run without stopping.

I can't say about Amtrak engines, but all the new ones I've been on still have Full Service before Suppression. Suppression gives a full service application and suppresses the penalty action.
I work in exCNW Automatic Train Control territory (two aspect cab signal, clear or restricting), when the cab signal goes to Restricting above 40 MPH we have 6 seconds to go to suppression. This gives a full service application but suppresses the penalty application from occuring. If for some reason you can't get to suppression within the 6 seconds, the penalty application takes the air and reduces the equalizing resevoir to 0 psi at a service rate.
Our rules require us to stop anytime an air brake application over 18psi is made before attempting a release.
JLH

I was wondering the samething I work former CNW ATC territory I've never seen Suppression before Full Service.

I am on Amtrak, and the 30 Knorr and/or Epic Systems have the Suppression position before the Full Service position. The Suppression position makes a 17 pound reduction, (full service is approximately 26 pounds) and nullifies the PCS with throttle handle in idle. It was moved, because there isn't a justifiable reason to grind a train to a stop, for a penalty that occured due to a few mph overspeed, or a tardy acknowledgement of an alertor/CSS. As long as you can get the handle to Suppression, and recover the penalty before you stop AND as long as you have enough air after doing this to control the train in accordance with the next block signal, it's doable. A penalty doesn't give you a "full service" application, it merely makes an "unwanted" service reduction, that will continue until you overcome the penalty situation. ( Of course, those freight type 26 and 30 systems do have suppression just before full service, and as you know, there isn't a pressure difference between those 2 positions. They should both make an approximate 26 pound reduction) If left unchecked, the penalty would take the EQ to zero, at a service rate. We are trained to recover from a penalty "on the fly" and to keep the train moving, within the restrictions imposed by the reason for recieving the penalty in the first place. Notice our Suppression is only 17 pounds, just under the mandated stop, for 18 pounds!( Some TTSI's/AB&TH's might impose a full stop, no matter the reason for the penalty, but this is done on a railroad by railroad basis) Not acknowledging an alertor at 79 mph isn't reason to stop as train, but you might have to explain the penalty to your crew, or the RFE if he downloads your engines.........

Sort of like the old bankers sex joke "Penalty for early withdrawl". Meaning if you try to get out of it early, you're hit with a penalty.

MNRR_RTC wrote:
Actually, a stop signal violation has a minimun of 30 days on the street. As for speeding, it depends.

Depends on who you work for, Engineer will lose his license for 30 days but conductors may not be off that long.

Burner wrote:

MNRR_RTC wrote:
Actually, a stop signal violation has a minimun of 30 days on the street. As for speeding, it depends.

Post a reply

Depends on who you work for, Engineer will lose his license for 30 days but conductors may not be off that long.

I should of made myself clearer.

Why are the various systems designed to make a penalty application for overspeed instead of just preventing the overspeed to begin with? Is the technology too complicated or unavailable, or would that much automation make it harder for the engineer to run the train, or is it because overspeed is one of the things that could mean that the engineer has keeled over unconscious, or something?

Traditional speed control and automatic train stop systems have not been able to detect an overspeed until it occurred, by which time it was already a violation. PTC systems, still a "work in progress," attempt to get inside the engineer's head and determine what he is going to do -- or not do -- before a violation occurs. And yes, it does make it harder for a good engineer to run the train efficiently by taking many train-handling decisions out of his hands. Based on what I've heard from various engineers, many of the latest systems are designed to make it impossible for the least-qualified guy on the roster to make a mistake, the result being that all train handling is reduced to the "least common denominator."

As to the nomenclature, I've always understood that the term penalty denotes a brake application not purposely initiated by the engineer.

That’s a good answer ExCon. I thing in general they are trying to idiot proof the job. Maybe when PTC and FTO are perfected they’ll be able to pay a guy about $20/hr. to do nothing except press the big red button if something is on the tracks.