Passenger Trains

In essence Mr. Miller repeats points made by many others including myself that Guilford benefits tremendously from rehabilitation of their railroad line. I do not, however, feel that the book is at all closed on whether or not this service is 'worth' it. How much further along towards failure would Guilford be now if this work had not been done? How much worse would freight service in Maine be now without an improved Right of Way to Massachusetts? These questions are probably better suited to discussion elsewhere but I think they are worth raising.

In the past two years the state has spent about $70 million rehabilitating 17 miles of Interstate between West Gardiner and Brunswick in both directions on I-295. It's hard to imagine that the investment from Plaistow to Portland and then Brunswick has not been worth while.

I would be interested to know what, if anything, Mr. Miller thought of the service once it had begun to grow after the first three years.

Ultimately, I'm not convinced that Maine Central's passenger service to Boston had the same quality as the Downeaster does today. In some cases the financial comparison is difficult to make because the track standards are different, therefore, it costs more money to get the same speed.

I know the speed is up there now so it is close to the commute time in a vehicle. I bet you'd be pretty close, and if you take the train, you on't have to find a place to park. That's what I like.
I think it is working backwards than what they planned. People take the train to Boston for the day. I doubt anyone takes the train to Portland for the day. If they do, they would have to use a cab or take a bus. In Boston, there is lots to do right by the North Station.
The rehab towards Brunswick may start to change this though. If People ride to Freeport to go shopping. And I'm almost willing to bet, more riders will board and detrain in Freeport than Brunswick.

Mike

miketrainnut wrote:I think it is working backwards than what they planned. People take the train to Boston for the day.

...

The rehab towards Brunswick may start to change this though. If People ride to Freeport to go shopping. And I'm almost willing to bet, more riders will board and detrain in Freeport than Brunswick.

I strongly agree with the idea that southbound originating passengers being higher than northbound originating passengers is the reverse of what was intended. As you mentioned hopefully having a stop in Freeport will help reverse this trend. Someday the sixth roundtrip may help with this problem as well. This trend strongly points towards the potential for growth on this service. Essentially right now the Downeaster is only serving the northern half of its geographic market. If they get the equation right so that the times are convenient for passengers originating from Boston the Downeaster could well start closing in on the 1 million rides per year mark.

It's hard to imagine the idea of four and five car trains running full both ways all day given that this line didn't have passenger service for so long. What a triumph that would be for the Downeaster to have such high ridership that an expansion to six car trains on a year round basis would be required. This increase would make the Downeaster almost unparalled in ridership to any corridor service east of Chicago. I rode the Hiawatha service last year between Glenview, IL (GLN) and Milwaukee Airport (MKA). They run a very similar service that uses two trainsets running roundtrips all day long. The thought of the Downeaster having both higher levels of service and higher demand than travel between Milwaukee and Chicago is mind-boggling.

I would think 'The Gull' was the last train on this line to ever have any regularly scheduled consist of more than four cars.

Higher ridership to Freeport than Brunswick wouldn't surprise me at all.

the Downeaster could well start closing in on the 1 million rides per year mark.

Considering that: 1) Portland only attracts 13,000 riders (26,000 trips) from the west annually, and 2) NNEPRA's own estimates indicate that overall DE traffic will increase ~10% with the extension (24,000 additional riders/48,000 trips)... an expectation of a 600,000 ridership bump is a bit optimistic, no?

Cowford wrote:

the Downeaster could well start closing in on the 1 million rides per year mark.

Considering that: 1) Portland only attracts 13,000 riders (26,000 trips) from the west annually, and 2) NNEPRA's own estimates indicate that overall DE traffic will increase ~10% with the extension (24,000 additional riders/48,000 trips)... an expectation of a 600,000 ridership bump is a bit optimistic, no?

The scenario envisioned an additional sixth roundtrip per day that made for a favorable northbound daily schedule and an increase in track speeds from FRA funding in the next federal appropriation. I agree it certainly isn't something that will happen soon. I just think that if in fact the Boston market is underserved then currently the Downeaster is getting about 350,000-375,000 rides a year pretty much from the Maine/Portland market alone.

All I'm estimating is that if the Boston market were to begin utlizing the train as much as the Portland/Maine market the increase would be disproportionate in absolute terms. It seems at least possible that this might occur if there is a speed/capacity increase along with a schedule adjustment.

On a different note regarding ridership I'm still curious about Maine Central and Boston & Maine's ridership on the Boston - Portland - Bangor corridor. What was their peak year for service? In particular it would be interesting to know if in absolute terms the Downeaster has in fact surpassed the B&M Boston - Portland operation.

In terms of consists I was wondering if anyone knew what a pre-RDC consist looked like on the B&M between Boston and Portland. Has the Downeaster already surpassed B&M in this regard?

Although in terms of costs I think it very difficult to make comparisons because of the difference in today's track standards and those of 1950 I would still be interested to know about absolute numbers of passengers. Perhaps at least per capita analysis could be done from there.

How much further along towards failure would Guilford be now if this work had not been done? How much worse would freight service in Maine be now without an improved Right of Way to Massachusetts?

It's an interesting question without a definitive answer. Another angle (you know I was going to provide one!): If the track rehab was never undertaken, would PAR have extended to Portland the PAS joint venture with NS?

gokeefe wrote:On a different note regarding ridership I'm still curious about Maine Central and Boston & Maine's ridership on the Boston - Portland - Bangor corridor. What was their peak year for service? In particular it would be interesting to know if in absolute terms the Downeaster has in fact surpassed the B&M Boston - Portland operation.

If you can find a business school library or Internet source that has copies of Moody's Transportation Manual (a stock market reference guide) from the 1970s or earlier, you'll find a ton of statistical information on the B&M and other railroads, including passengers carried and passenger revenue. However the numbers are systemwide, not broken down by route. Back when I used to write about this sort of thing, the Moody's volumes in my local library were always a great statistical reference.

To make a reasonable guess at answering your question, there's no question that the Downeaster service carries more passengers than the B&M did in its final years of Boston-Portland passenger service in the 1960s, but I'm sure that if you go back far enough you'll find higher ridership in the first half of the 20th century when rail was the only practical intercity transportation option on that route.

Cowford wrote:

How much further along towards failure would Guilford be now if this work had not been done? How much worse would freight service in Maine be now without an improved Right of Way to Massachusetts?

It's an interesting question without a definitive answer. Another angle (you know I was going to provide one!): If the track rehab was never undertaken, would PAR have extended to Portland the PAS joint venture with NS?

Actually I had wondered the same myself. I think given the presence of the 'break' in PARs system with MBTA TT East of Fitchburg and other segments NS would not have been interested in making investments in a state owned line over which they would not have been able to take control in the event that operations on the line didn't proceed the way they wanted them to.

I also think there may have been some question as the whether or not Maine (District 1) was generating the volume that they would be interested in. Whether or not having a non-contiguous system would be a concern for NS in this part of the country is not something I have any idea about.

They already have to travel over other railroads to reach the West End, so I don't think that would be a factor in whether or not they'd be interested in the East End.

MEC407 wrote:They already have to travel over other railroads to reach the West End, so I don't think that would be a factor in whether or not they'd be interested in the East End.

Are you referring to Ayer - Fitchburg on the MBTA or some other portion of tracks in NY?

They have to travel over CP (ex-D&H lines) to get to the B&M.

I guess that question really is out there then. Even though it's completely OT, maybe we'll need a new thread in PAR/GRS forum.

Would NS have extended the PAS joint venture to District 1 if the tracks had not been improved from Plaistow - Portland?

gokeefe had a question about ridership and consists. I would not know the peak year, but it might have been in World War II as there was a huge amount of military activity in Boston, Portland and Portsmouth. The 1955 Annual Report, the first McGinnis issue has a passenger density chart for year. It has about 300,000 passengers in and out of Portland.
For consists, I have equipment assignment charts for RDC and conventional coach equipment; one dated July 26, other August 5, 1957. Here's the line-up.
#1 Lv Boston 2:30a 1 Foreign AC Coach - Thru to MEC #1 Bangor
#81 Lv Lawrence 5:31a, 1 Deluxe Combine, 1 Deluxe Coach to Portland (State of Maine)
#11 Lv Boston 9:00a 1-2 (RDC 1 & 2) To Portland, returns as #14
#113 Lv Boston 9:20a RDC 3 (drops some cars Haverhill) RDC 3 runs to Dover then makes 1.5 roundtrips on Conway Branch
#15 Lv Boston 12:30p 1 Deluxe Comb, 2 Foreign AC coaches to MEC 15, 1 car thru to BAR #7
#17 Lv Boston 3:30p 1 Deluxe Coach To Portland - later goes onto MEC 21
#141 Lv Boston 3:55p RDC-2 to Dover, drops some cars at Haverhill
#19 Lv Boston 4:45p RDC 1 & 9 to Portland
#151 Lv Boston 5:14p RDC set 1-9-9-9-1-1
#23 Lv Boston 9:30p 2 Deluxe coaches thru to MEC 23
I used the 4/28/57 public. Nothing about head-end or Pullman equipment. I got these great charts when I worked for the B & M and the Guilford management decided to vacate 150 Causeway Street in Boston. I was allowed to "liberate" the files that Guilford had no interest in. Some went to B & M RRHS, some to Walker Collection at the Beverly Historical and some came home with me. By the way, most of the people who watched out for me and my interests never called me a FRN or anything like it. Most of them have passed away and I remember them and those great days oftern. God Bless them all.

That #151 with all the RDCs ran to Dover only.