Passenger Equipped FA-2s and FB-2s

Pakistan received what were essentially 23 FPA-2s riding on paired A1A trucks. See Steinbrenner p. 374 for a photo. The Pakistan units DE 2001-DE 2023 are classified as FCA-3s on Andy Inserra's Alco Export page here http://www.tamr.org/Andy_Inserra/ These units appear to be the immediate predecessors of the ALCO DL500 line.

Will Davis--
This question probably ought to move to the GE forum, but....
You say you have a Conrail roster listing some units as "U23-7". Now, we already knew that Conrail's rosters are inaccurate (on the GE forum it has been noted that one Conrail booklet -- I think reproduced on George Elwood's site -- is wrong about which B23-7 had anticlimbers, and more recently the spurious listing of 2400-class B30-7 has been noted). BUT...
Which units are listed as "U23-7"? U23B 2289-2298 were built in 1977 (and there was some confusion at the time about what GE intended the "-7" to designate), and also differed from previous Conrail U23B in having AC/DC transmission... so if it was THESE units that were called "U23-7" the clerical error may not have been inadvertent but may have been an attempt to record the special features of these units.

The mistaken and incorrect (clerical error) "U23-7" designation is applied to all of them for CR, both the large 1900 road number block and the 2800 number block. However, the 2800 block is oddly repeated elsewhere in the same table listed as B23-7. It has nothing to do with U23B units at all. All of the other entries on this large list for all Conrail GE units are in line with all other conventional General Electric technical literature.

General Electric did not differentiate transmission type in model nomenclature on any other locomotives and did not in this case either. There are also no "U" prefix Dash 7 locomotives as erroneously listed on the roster page of this manual. This is the only place I have ever seen this designation, erroneous or not and let's hope it doesn't get legs and take off like the completely fake EMD "F-5" did some years back.

I brought this up only to indicate what an obvious clerical error in a document is, and how to differentiate it. This is just a big list. It is not written out (text) technical or operating information or sales information, and it isn't a letter from the manufacturer explaining model nomenclature.

Sorry to "burst your bubble" Allen -- we're not onto something here, it's just an error.

-Will Davis

OK Guys....Let's get back to the topic.

Well, back on topic. The old Kalmbach "Diesel Spotter's Guide" gave production figures for for FA-2 and FPA-2 (and for B variants). Any guesses where they got them? Do their figures agree with anyone else's (Steinbrenner, Kirkland)? (I should be able to check this in a few days.)

It looks to me as if Alco intended (at least retrospectively, though Will quotes a 1950 manual) to use "FPA" for FA-type units with steam generators, but that this intention was not consistently followed. What might refute this would be for someone to find a CONSISTENT technical difference between those units officially listed as FPA-2 and those (like Lehigh Valley's) that had steam generators but were described as "FA" units. So far I see no suggestion of such a difference.

(Will: thanks for indulging me and replying about my off-topic idea. I've seen occasional uses of "U23B-AC" and "U23B-DC" in the railfan literature, but never any suggestion that these were official GE model designations... )

Here is what I found so far.

ALCO/MLW FPA-2/FPB-2
UNOFFICIAL COUNT

FPA-2 74 units
ALCO 1602A, 1602D
BALTIMORE & OHIO 809, 809A, 811, 811A, 813, 813A, 815, 815A 817, 817A
CANADIAN NATIONAL 6706-6711
CANADIAN PACIFIC 4082-4083, 4094-4098
FERROCARIL DEL PACIFICO 901-904
LEHIGH VALLEY 590, 592, 594
LOUISVILLE & NASHVILLE 350-352, 383-384
MISSOURI PACIFIC 361-373; 387-392
NATIONAL OF MEXICO 6500-6501, 6502A-6506A, 6523A-6533A

FPB-2 - 27 units
ALCO 1602B-1602C
BALTIMORE & OHIO 809X, 811X, 813X, 815X, 817X
CANADIAN NATIONAL 6806-6811
CANADIAN PACIFIC 4463-4464
LEHIGH VALLEY 583
NATIONAL OF MEXICO 6502B-6506B, 6528B-6533B

Steinbrenner tallies 58 ALCO built FPA-2s and 19 MLW built FPA-2s. ALCO exported 18 FPA-2s and MLW exported 6 FPA-2s. ALCO built 12 FPB-2s and MLW built 14 FPB-2s. ALCO exported 4 FPB-2s and MLW exported 6 FPB-2s.

I believe Steinbrenners count on the B units exported is wrong. And if you do the math and take away the Lehigh Valley units you get 71 A units and 26 B units. That matches Steinbrenner's overall B unit count and leaves six A units unaccounted for exported to either Mexico's SCOP or to Cuba take your pick I don't know and haven't found any more sources to check.
Maybe those Lehigh Valley units were FA-2s and an FB-2 with steam generators after all. Maybe they were retrofitted by LV with parts from???? What did ALCO do with the steam generators out of the 1602 demo set, before it was sold to GN?

I think that the Great Northern's units all had steam generators. We know that the ALCO-GE demo set that the GN bought had them, and that the two units they bought separately also had them. Look at this photo of Great Northern 277-B.

http://www.gngoat.org/gn277b.jpg

I have no reason to assume that the other units GN acquired would have had the steam generators removed; do we know this for a fact? I cannot find a good roof shot of these in GN or BN service yet. However, we can add the two GN FPA-2 units to your list (277-A and 277-B) and I note oddly enough that the builder numbers for these two are immediately before those of the ALCO-GE demonstrator units that GN bought - all built 11/50.

-Will Davis

I have been following this thread and it is very interesting.

If I can make two observations, the source for Alco calling S/G equipped FPA2s is Alco, that's an official source. The source for NOT calling Lehigh Valley FA2s with S/Gs "FPA2s" is a railfan publication and a book written by an employee. Both good sources but not "official" sources, big difference.

Second, in the early days of diesel use, based on a TRAINS article (which I can't cite off the top of my head), one of the manufacturers complained "the railroads" were using non-official model designations. They'd order a part for Model "such-and-such" and the parts supply would not know what the heck they were talking about. I think the builder eventually adopted the model designations the carriers were using!

What's my point? I'm drawing the conclusion (based on this discussion) that it is entirely possible (also probable) Lehigh Valley DID NOT ever refer to their S/G-equiped FA2s as FPA2s, but Alco did. That much we now know. Interesting.

The question I have is, this has been referred to several times but no one has said (I don't think), did LV FAs with S/Gs have the higher passenger gear ratio? I would think they probably didn't.

[edited for clarity]

Thank you Tommy for saying what I should have said earlier. Most of us know that Railfan publications are famous for making up names for equipment (Shark,Alligator,etc) that is NOT "Official". Extra 2200 South magazine was known for this with its "Phase 1,Phase 2,etc" in trying to see a difference in models that were upgraded.
Alco on the other hand changed a specification number such as" DL-107, DL-109" or DL640 and DL640A when a unit was upgraded or in some cases a improved model and body style.
Railroads quite often have their own "class" system which loosely describes many locomotive that have similar power ratings.CN,CP and many overseas railroads refer to their locomotives by "class". While this has no relationship to the builders models and may not describe the model exactly , it may be easier for the railroad to remember a model such as a "FPA-2" as a FA-2 or CN MR-20 (M420).
I have personally witnessed this Canada once when in talking with a CN employee did not know an M420 as a M420, but as a MR-20 which cover many 2,000 horsepower units in addition to the M420.

Alcoman I agree. I think for the railroad's purposes, it might be more important for a engine dispatcher to know whether a unit has "passenger gearing" rather than whether or not it's running around with a steam generator. So for the Valley to call these units FPA2s -- guessing they probably were geared for freight -- might cause unnecessary confusion. On the other hand, it would seem parts supply at Alco would benefit from an easy way to know whether a given LV unit did or did not have a steam generator.

How would that benefit Alco? If the roundhouse/stores guys needed parts, that weren't "off the shelf" parts, they would use their Alco Parts Bulletins, and secure the parts they needed, by placing an order, from their catalog. Not like calling NAPA, and telling them "I got a '52 FA-1, and I need an eductor tube"..... you know? Alco built them to order, or occasionally on spec, but the master mechanic and his minions, were going to do the rest, from there. Steam generator parts would have come from Vapor, or some other outside supplier, so parts specific to that system would be ordered form that vendor, not from Alco. It's still just a FA, with a boiler filling the void in the space in the end of the hood. When your railroad didn't run speeds requiring passenger gearing, even the motor/axle assemblies were just more parts, you already stocked for every other Alco road unit already on the property.