P-1a or P-2b NYC Loco Drawings

Greetings:
I have read all of the posts on the forum and I have an unanswered question.

I would like to build a 1/19th scale model (3" gauge) of a NYC Class P-1a or P-2b electric locomotive.
This model should be aprox. 36" or so long when finished.

I need decent line (erection) drawings of the front and side views. Inside views and the more info the better.

I checked out the NYC System Historical Societys site and they sell a CD that is listed as "Mechanical Department Electric Loco. Drawing Archive."

Can anyone tell me if this CD has the info that I am looking for?

Thanks in advance for any help that you can give.....

Jerry Kelley

What you want to do will likely cost you plenty of "green". I suggest you buy the CD sight unseen and unkown, I think it will be worth the green and help even if only a little bit. You might not be able to find anything elsewhere either.
Noel Weaver

This-- at George Elwood's marvellous "Fallen Flags" railroad image site-- is available on the WWWeb. Obviously not sufficient for making a detailed scale model, but basic dimensional information. The P1/P2 was 80 feet long, so a 1/19 scale model would be over 4 feet long.

(Why, if you don't mind my asking, 1/19? I don't think it is a common modelling scale. 1/16 (for 3.5 inch track gauge) is used by live steam modellers, and I think there may be some European large-scale models at 1/20.)

Greetings:
I guess that I have to answer my own question here. After looking for a few days, I have found a valuable resource on the P-1a. Electric Locomotive Plan and Photo Book written by NJ International 1987. This book has the drawings of many electric locos including the P-1a.

I have been asked about 1/19th scale or 3" gauge. The late Wilbur T. Frey built about 200 static steam locomotives for display in his lifetime. Most of his locos have stayed in the Northeast and are either in private collections or museums. Since his passing, I have built two locomotives in the same style. One is a Hoosac Tunnel electric and the other is a Mt. Washington Railway Cog Loco. I am always looking for a project and the CUT - NYC P-1a would make a great display model.

My models are highly detailed and take well over 200 hours to complete. It usually takes me about a year to get enough bench time to get one done.

Thanks

Jerry

Jkrail--
Thanks for the explanation of your choice of scale. I think there may have been an article about Wilbur Frey, with photos of some of his models, in "Model Railroader" back in the ?? 1970s ??.

(In case anyone is wondering what 1/19 looks like: it's big! The models the Smithsonian Museum of History and Technology at least used to have in their railroad hall were only 1/24, and they were pretty impressive.)

And the P1/P2 is certainly a historic locomotive that deserves to be remembered. It was, I think, GE's first 4-6+6-4 electric locomotive, and so in a sense the prototype of the very successful designs they later built for the New Haven, the Pennsylvania, railways in Brazil and Chile...

Hello Allen and all of those interested:

Thanks for the tip on the website, it was a big help and very interesting.
I am suprised that there is so little information on these neat locomotives. Does anyone have pictures of the insides?

For those that are interested in 1/19 scale models and Wilbur Frey's work. Please check out this link. It has many pictures of his beautiful work. I am proud to try to carry on his great legacy of model making.

http://www.walkertrans.org/WilburFrey.htm

If anyone comes across interior drawings of a P-1a or P-2b, please post it here.

Thanks
Jerry

Jkrail--
It sounds as if you were able to find "Fallen Flags", but I notice that I seem not to have included the URL in my earlier post.
So:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-46lb-d.pdf
(Takes a minute to load. This is the New York Central mechanical department's1946 locomotive diagram book: diagram #180 is a P1, the P-motor in its original configuration for operation under Cleveland unionTerminal's overhead wires. Elsewhere on the "Fallen Flags" New York Central - Locomotives index there is a link to a scattering of diagrams I think including one of the P2, the P-motor as rebuilt for use on the New York area third-rail electrification.)

The photos at the "Walkertrans" website you link to look right: I'm now more confident than I was at first that the old "Model Railroader" article I referred to was about him and his work.

I'm unlikely to find interior drawings in the foreseeable future, but if I do I'll let you know!

A propos of nothing in particular...
Some years ago I idly wondered about the possibility of kit-bashing a (semi-affordable) model of a PRR GG-1 with new bodywork to represent one of the New Haven's GE-built 4-6+6-4 electrics (EP-3, EP-4, or even the EF-3 even though only half of them were actually built by GE). What I found on looking into it was that the underframe of the GG-1 was visibly different. On the other hand, the frames of the P1/P2 look like those on all the New Haven locomotives...
Totally irrelevant to the original question (but if someone was wanting to make an operating HO-scale P1/P2...).

Rather than create a new separate thread, I will ask the question here ...

The P-2b locomotives I saw on the Hudson and Harlem lines in the early 1970s had steam generators for passenger service. Did the steam generator on these locomotives use electricity or diesel fuel as the energy source to boil water and produce steam?

Jhdeasy--
Oil-fired.
According to an article on the P-2 by H.F. Cavanaugh, in the Jan-Feb 1988 issue of the magazine "Electrolines" (I don't know if the magazine still exists: it was devoted to electric railroading: streetcar, mass transit, mainline), when these locomotives were originally built (as P-1, for the Cleveland Union Terminal electrification) they had Otis oil-burning steam generators. When they were rebuilt for New York use these were replaced by Vapor-Clarkson s.g., and additional water and oil tank capacity was installed because of the longer runs (the whole C.U.T. electrification involved only 17 route-miles of track).

The rebuilding, b.t.w., was quite extensive: trucks and underframes reconditioned and modified, and what sounds like virtually all of the electrical gear replaced: the new, 600 volt, electrical stuff was physically smaller than the original 3000 volt equipment, even though it yielded a locomotive about a third more powerful!

Hello Jerry
Are you still looking for CUT P1a information?
I have a large print dated March 22, 1929 from Alco Drawing # 430-S91710 or GE Drawing PP-3812276
This print is about 20" by 60" showing major dimensions and shows much more detail than a clearance diagram.

If you are interested I could scan it in sections and send it to you. I'll have to look into having it scanned whole from a blueprint shop when I get some time.
Let me know if this would help out...Good Day Sir
Ed

I also have drawing number 430-S-91710: Erecting Drawing(Oct 19, 1929)

And I have drawing number WW-1989043 Location of Apparatus(Feb 19, 1929) which shows everything inside the locomotive carbody. This is a VERY large drawing. Only a blueprint company could copy it. I think it is probably a rare item today.

I would be surprised if the NYCSHS does not have these drawings in its collection.

Hugh T. Guillaume

Hi
Electric Locomotive Plan and Photo Book written by NJ International 1987

In this same book, as mentioned earlier, is there plans for a GM10B ?

Thanks

Charlie Harris

My father worked as an electrician on P-1a CUT Electric locomotives at the Collinwood yard in Cleveland, Ohio. Those electrics pulled passenger trains into the Cleveland Union Terminal from either Collinwood or Linndale, Ohio yards. I am trying to find a home for the following items, make an offer:

1. Two identical 14" x 35" black and white drawings of a "2-C+C-2 Electric Passenger Engine No. 204 - P-1a"

and

2. One large blue print measuring 18" x 82 1/2" of a CUT Co's Class P-1a by H. A. Currie, Consulting Engineer for CUT Co. dated March 22, 1929. CUT stands for Cleveland Union Terminal. Print shows a side view as well as a head on view. The blue print in lower right box identifies General Electric of Schnectady Works, NY with a print number P-P 3812276

Call or email if interested: George Sellnau; 713-978-7774 or [email protected]

erie2937 wrote:I also have drawing number 430-S-91710: Erecting Drawing(Oct 19, 1929)

And I have drawing number WW-1989043 Location of Apparatus(Feb 19, 1929) which shows everything inside the locomotive carbody. This is a VERY large drawing. Only a blueprint company could copy it. I think it is probably a rare item today.

I would be surprised if the NYCSHS does not have these drawings in its collection.

Hugh T. Guillaume

Hello Hugh:
Would you be willing to sell or copy the WW-1989043 drawing? If so, please let me know. I sent you a private message with my email address.
Thanks
Jerry