Official Naugatuck Railroad thread (NAUG/RMNE)

[Noel Weaver]

I am not going to waste my time trying to answer this nonsense. The attitude problem is YOURS.
Noel Weaver

[H.F.Malone]

Mr. oibu (is that an hommage to Conrail's Oak Island- BUffalo symbol, by any chance?),

Please read the last line of my last post.

[oibu]

Mr. Weaver, No one asked you to respond to ANY of it.

The response I asked for was as to whether anything I wanted to see might be running. Pretty simple (THANK YOU Mr. Malone! and yes, my handle here is indeed the dearly departed symbol of my favorite train under CR). RMNE probably would have sold a couple tickets to me at some point as a result, whenever something interesting actually could be reasonably counted on to be in service, but I'm much less inclined to do so given the seeming prevaling attitude. (No one is arguing that buying a ticket or dropping some bills in a donation box is the right thing to do even if not riding.)

Instead I got chastised for selfishly wanting to see something that I did not personally buy or restore myself that is owned by and been restored by a group whose mission allegedly is to preserve and share these pieces of history with the public. How dare I, as a member of the public and not a museum volunteer, wish to see any of it!

Apparently you don't grasp that such antics will drive away both potential ticket sales, and potential volunteers or donors. Likewise, having something cool and historic actually in operation is probably a lot more likely to generate more public and volunteer interest than a laundry list of carcasses to restore and a U-boat relentlessly pulling a tourist train. You do what you gotta do, but please be honest with yourselves and admit that not many fans are going to drive far to see that, rather than act like anything you touch is gilded and the fans will walk acrss the continent if they need to for the mere privilege of seeing it. I try to drop a few subtle hints to help your seemingly lacking PR (are any of you guys besides Otto representing the museum in any "official" capacity here? in some cases I surely hope not) and instead get told I have an "attitude problem". No, I do believe the attitude problem would be with those who feel that I don't deserve to see any of the artifacts their group owns and has restored unless I helped restore it, and that in the meantime I should spend my time and money to see something I don't wish to and should just be happy that I was "allowed" the privilige of paying to see it. Forgive me for even considering, someday when something I want to see is in operation, traveling to your state and paying money to support your opreation without actually putting my own elbow grease into it, or without first coming and paying to see something I don't care about just for the priviliage of being deemed "worthy" of seeing the "good stuff".

No thanks, I'll save my time and money for an operation that appreciates my patronage and doesn't criticize me for not driving 6 hours round trip and $60 in gas, passing several other organizations en route, to help out just because I want to be a part of elite circle of those deemed worthy of seeing a loco they allege to have restored actually in operation.

[Noel Weaver]

Mr. Weaver, No one asked you to respond to ANY of it.

The response I asked for was as to whether anything I wanted to see might be running. Pretty simple (THANK YOU Mr. Malone! and yes, my handle here is indeed the dearly departed symbol of my favorite train under CR). RMNE probably would have sold a couple tickets to me at some point as a result, whenever something interesting actually could be reasonably counted on to be in service, but I'm much less inclined to do so given the seeming prevaling attitude. (No one is arguing that buying a ticket or dropping some bills in a donation box is the right thing to do even if not riding.)

Instead I got chastised for selfishly wanting to see something that I did not personally buy or restore myself that is owned by and been restored by a group whose mission allegedly is to preserve and share these pieces of history with the public. How dare I, as a member of the public and not a museum volunteer, wish to see any of it!

Apparently you don't grasp that such antics will drive away both potential ticket sales, and potential volunteers or donors. Likewise, having something cool and historic actually in operation is probably a lot more likely to generate more public and volunteer interest than a laundry list of carcasses to restore and a U-boat relentlessly pulling a tourist train. You do what you gotta do, but please be honest with yourselves and admit that not many fans are going to drive far to see that, rather than act like anything you touch is gilded and the fans will walk acrss the continent if they need to for the mere privilege of seeing it. I try to drop a few subtle hints to help your seemingly lacking PR (are any of you guys besides Otto representing the museum in any "official" capacity here? in some cases I surely hope not) and instead get told I have an "attitude problem". No, I do believe the attitude problem would be with those who feel that I don't deserve to see any of the artifacts their group owns and has restored unless I helped restore it, and that in the meantime I should spend my time and money to see something I don't wish to and should just be happy that I was "allowed" the privilige of paying to see it. Forgive me for even considering, someday when something I want to see is in operation, traveling to your state and paying money to support your opreation without actually putting my own elbow grease into it, or without first coming and paying to see something I don't care about just for the priviliage of being deemed "worthy" of seeing the "good stuff".

No thanks, I'll save my time and money for an operation that appreciates my patronage and doesn't criticize me for not driving 6 hours round trip and $60 in gas, passing several other organizations en route, to help out just because I want to be a part of elite circle of those deemed worthy of seeing a loco they allege to have restored actually in operation.

I did not charge you for my response, it was free.

Noel Weaver

[CannaScrews]

Education comes at a high price; generally in the form of repetition.

Student A says Z. Master M says W.
Student A says Z->Y. Master M say W-V.

Repeat again every semester.
Nothing new here, just tweaking both sides.

Most preservation groups would be lucky, LUCKY to have a new running locomotive every year! Time and economics are greatly against it!
Even well endowed "artsy" museums struggle to produce a special exhibit each year - and that might just involve shipping a Monet from there to here, much less fiddle with prime movers, 3 types of FRA mandated inspection schedules, just to power some coaches, which finally are getting some needed attention & repair. A situation much better for the public that rides them & doesn't much care about a tired paint job on the diesel.

There are other priorities involved in operating a preserved railway than what are we going to run this month. No dispersions cast on the mindset of the posters to this forum, but this has been said before.

As for publicity, marketing, attracting volunteers? Ask IRM. Ask them how many new volunteers they manage to acquire each year. Ask them how many new locomotives they are going to be running next year. Given the scale of operation compared to the RMNE, I'd be wouldn't be surprised that the RMNE efforts are within the scale.

May the RMNE be so lucky as they have the equipment saved (not necessarily preserved) to have interested people fantasize about operating said equipment - over a 19+ mile route to boot!

Just buy your lottery tickets & pledge to share half (pre-tax of course) the proceeds with the RMNE. Money talks, everybody else walks.

[Stag Hound]

OIBU,

As a member of the museum, I understand your frustration and it is certainly something we are working to correct. The typical "party" line is "come and help out" or "put your money where your mouth is." Honestly, the amount of money you can give is (at least I am assuming...I would love to be proved incorrect!) is money that honestly, will buy perhaps another keg of spikes or a few more ties. Helpful? Certainly. A "game changer?" Hardly. The types of projects we are looking to undertake are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions. We are talking grants, endowments, etc. We are just as disappointed historic locomotives are not running in regular service as you are. However, we are currently focused on moving (and stabilizing) some of the most important pieces of the collection. The completion of this project will mark the final chapter in the original 1996 move off the Valley line. Then, it's time for a master plan relative to short and long term goals including stabilization. The collection needs protection from the elements in the form of a building. From there, is it selecting projects and more importantly securing the funding to see them to completion. So, long story short, your points are well taken and I agree with most. However, as much as I empathasize with a clear love of the equipment (after all, that is a long drive especially seeing the current cost of gas) you are not who the museum will be designing a master plan around. Our target audience will be the next generation, in the form of families, with exhibits that tell the story of railroad from the point of view of the average person. Again though, come out and take all the pictures you would like!

[oibu]

Stag Hound, thank you for being someone who seems to be associiated with RMNE who is willing to speak with reason. I understand and agree with what you said on all counts.

I reiteriate, I did not come here to criticize RMNE and only made some of the points I did later in response to those individuals who seem to fancy themselves elitists with the power of ordaining who is or is not worthy of seeing any of the historic locos in operation.

Wouldn't it be a wonderful world indeed if I had unlimited time and money to direct towards projects at countless historic preservation groups. If that were the case, 557 would have been restored to operation a decade or more ago and 0529 and 557 would both be running almost every weekend!! But alas most of us are stuck living here in the real world and must make choices when it comes to how we devote our time and money. I'm sorry if that's just not satisfactory to some.

I still would love to see the FL9 and 0529 running someday, despite the comments of some who (repeatedly and consistently, it seems) leave a pretty disasteful impression of what the RMNE people are all about or whether they are in fact an organization I'd want to support. I do understand the need for funding and volunteers, but can also guarantee that beating everyone who shows an ounce of of interest in your group or operation over the head will not produce the desired results. Most museums can benefit from whatever free positive PR, good words, ticket sales, minor helping hand, or bills in the drop box they can get- yet some here seem adept at pissing away any benefit that they deem to be less than "enough" or turning away potential customers who in their estimation do not "deserve" to see the fruits of the mueums' labor.

[daylight4449]

But Otto, what about the constant need for volunteers? oibu, if you really want to see 2019 running, why not try and drive to the shops and put in some hours to get 2019 squared away for regular running again? Or maybe try to help with the Maine Central 557 or any of the other first generation power that are seeing some basic care-taking or restoration? Aw crud, where did I leave that flak jacket

Credit where credit is due, Dylan,
...that is a fine point you just made.

And once I get the next stipend from the YAG I've been working with in Worcester... Well, my bomber of a Ford Escort plus $90... I think I can squeeze a trip out of that

[Jeff Smith]

I'm going to have to dig out my thesis, treatise on Rail Museums from the URHS thread.

[Jeff Smith]

Here it is:

These are observations, not criticisms. I do this because "museum" threads are the bane of my existence:

-There are many character parts in museum threads.
-There's the pie-in-the-sky member who wants absolutely no criticism of the operation and feels such criticism is harmful. Aka "See No Evil"
-There is the gadfly, the person who from afar criticizes or offers suggestions and "helpful" observations. They may or may not take part. The suggestions may or may not be helpful. Aka "Devil's Advocate".
-There is the conspiracy theorist. He believes there are people in the organization with nefarious purposes, that they will solicit your money and squander it. Something must be afoot; notify the AG! Aka "The Truther"
-There is the railroader. He offers help, and wants to do everything according to FRA standards. This is going to be the best damn railroad in the world, dammit! He gets very frustrated when the budget doesn't allow for it, or the organization has to make hard choices. Aka "The Purist".
-There is the railfan. He and the railroader often want the same thing, but they can't agree on it because of their blind hatred for each other which develops after the railfan actually meets the railroader and senses the disrespect, leading to disillusionment. They want this paint scheme, and think they can get a can of spray paint from the local hobby shop and knock out a project in a weekend. Their hearts are in the right place. Aka "The Foamer".
-For each one of these, there are the hundreds of railfans, railroaders, preservationists, and tourists who devote their time, work, energy, money, to make it happen and don't let their egos get in the way. Aka "THE HEROES".

Now, I'm not pegging anyone on here with this, but perhaps some if not all of us will recognize ourselves. Me? Definitely not a hero. Maybe I need a definition for "the diplomat".

[CannaScrews]

Jeff:

Here is a start for a larger cast of characters.

"The Visionary": saw a need to develop an organization to promote the preservation of some artifact or modality. (Railroads in East Jibib is a modality, BTW)

"The Hoarder": It's mine (locomotive, track, machine, gift-shop, station) and you can get it when you pry it from my clenched cold hands.

"The Giver": I'll go where I'm needed, do what needs to be done. (subset of Hero).

"The Flattered": The only one capable of doing this task. I.E. no one else wanted to do it, but that person was shamed/flattered into doing it.

"The Purse": The first one contacted when some funding is needed.

"The Loose Cannon": 'nuff said.

"The Marginal": Want's to help, but your fingers are always crossed when that happens.

"The Bloviator": Talks a good game, shows up for work, gets a task, but otherwise useless.

"The Old Codger": Just wants to talk about the good old days (railroader, railfan, preservationist).

"The slicer/dicer": Tries to find pragmatic solutions which may or may not be practical.

"The Diplomat": works with all factions trying to see the point of each faction and trying to convince or educate the various factions to the other's point of view.

"The Politician": started off as a diplomat, wised up, learned how to push the various factions buttons and actually promoted accomplishment.


Ya gotta love it!

[Otto Vondrak]

What we have here I believe is some misunderstanding

Someone please post if 2019 becomes regular power soon! Also hoping for the return of 529.

Indeed! Both are great engines to photograph and ride behind. In fact, we did post some information about both of these engines earlier:

http://naugy.blogspot.com/2012/08/end-o ... eport.html

And I think you should expect some more news on the 529's return to service in the future.

It may pull trains, and the public may not care, but I just can't justify the time or gas just to see a 2nd-Gen GE in rehashed P&W paint.

You made your point clear! But can you understand how this might be misinterpreted as an unfair jab at the museum? The GE (historic in its own right, the last production U-boat ever made) was acquired and runs to help reduce wear and tear on the older vintage fleet, and pulls the weight while other units take their turn in the shop. It currently shares duty with the FL9. Also realize that the Naugatuck Railroad is subject to FRA regulations, which means it costs us money to have a locomotive inspected, blue-carded, and kept in service. We can't possibly keep the entire fleet in service, so we have to pick and choose what makes sense at any given time.

Wouldn't it be a wonderful world indeed if I had unlimited time and money to direct towards projects at countless historic preservation groups. If that were the case, 557 would have been restored to operation a decade or more ago and 0529 and 557 would both be running almost every weekend!! But alas most of us are stuck living here in the real world and must make choices when it comes to how we devote our time and money. I'm sorry if that's just not satisfactory to some.

Again, I think there's some misunderstanding if you feel that you are being solely imposed upon for contributions. That's not realistic at all. And it's not an expectation of RMNE or any other group.

I do understand the need for funding and volunteers, but can also guarantee that beating everyone who shows an ounce of of interest in your group or operation over the head will not produce the desired results.

Again, I don't know why you feel "beat upon" or otherwise imposed. In my initial response, I tried to express our need for help, and at the same time express our appreciation when it comes our way. I think your initial short note indicating you couldn't justify the expense of time and money if the desired engine wasn't running was met with an equally short response. You didn't seem to show "interest in the group," only getting your photo, and the way you were asking for information didn't make it sound like you were interested in lending any support (intangible or otherwise). I offered a friendly reminder that we need your support, and nothing more. I hope you don't feel I put any unreasonable demands on you.

Instead I got chastised for selfishly wanting to see something that I did not personally buy or restore myself that is owned by and been restored by a group whose mission allegedly is to preserve and share these pieces of history with the public. How dare I, as a member of the public and not a museum volunteer, wish to see any of it!

I'm not sure I understand this statement at all. The only stuff that's off limits to the general public is stuff that's in storage or at the shops, and that's for safety and insurance issues and nothing else. Was there a specific piece you're interested in seeing or need more information about?

No thanks, I'll save my time and money for an operation that appreciates my patronage and doesn't criticize me for not driving 6 hours round trip and $60 in gas, passing several other organizations en route, to help out just because I want to be a part of elite circle of those deemed worthy of seeing a loco they allege to have restored actually in operation.

Of course we appreciate your patronage! Now, where's this elite circle with a locomotive, I'd like to meet them? Sounds boring if this engine runs in a circle, though.

But if it's all behind a fence or disassembled in teh shop, there's not much to see. Yes, operating historic locos takes time, money, and may not always be possible. But if you're advertising yourself as a musuem/historic operation, you shouldn't be surprised when a lack of anything historic to see or ride behind wears out its welcome.

Something you're specifically interested in?

Get something worth the trip up and running and you'll have another paying customer. That may just mean putting the time, $, and focus into one or two projects at a time instead of having 15 projects all going side by side and having none of them ever done. A lot of arifacts have eventually been lost simply because they spent too much time in pieces rusting away while someone was "restoring" them.

Your point is a good one. If you keep up with our blog (which is linked from our home page at http://www.rmne.org), you'll see that we have been doing exactly the thing you described. I wish RMNE had the capacity to work on 15 projects all at once! In fact, it's the management of RMNE that keeps the volunteer forces focused on the priority projects. I assure you nothing is "sitting in pieces rusting away" if it is indeed an active restoration project.

I haven't been on the shop floor lately, but here's what I know off the top of my head. The pit track is kept clear so periodic FRA-mandated locomotive inspections can be made. Other locomotive repair work takes place on the pit track, too, especially anything related to motors, brakes, etc. On the opposite track, there is the multi-year restoration of one of the CN heavyweight coaches. This coach has seen extensive work done repairing rot and rust as well as replacing critical wooden components in the roof as well as the interior. There's ongoing work to repair B&M geep 1732 and return her to service, that's an ongoing project that involves replacing the prime mover, if I remember correctly. Yes, the replacement is on hand, and being reconditioned. There's work to be done to NH 529 so she can be returned to service. I think there are others on the shop floor who can comment better on that, but if you also read back in the blog, you can get a pretty good idea of what's being worked on. And of course, all of these projects require time, people, and money, so you'll have to understand that we may be a little sensitive when folks seemingly "demand" that more historic equipment be put into service. That's been the goal all along.

There's plenty of deserving preservation groups in the region. Support them as you will. Criticisms are expected, but don't be put off when you're given a realistic answer.

-otto-

[tsrachaser]

I would be willing to wager that if the RMNE were about to, or had recently out-shopped a piece of the collection, that they'd be shouting it from the rooftops, via facebook, and here, and RYPN, and the website, and so on, and so on. Just sayin...

DRM
Vapor-Clarkson, MD

[oibu]

Otto, in fact my first message was in response to the link you mentioned- as in "ok, sounds like this will happen, I'd appreciate a head-up when it does!". Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't mind a freindly request or reminder that RMNE, like most other groups, can use the support.

But it gets pretty obnoxious when a whole peanut gallery chimes in parroting the same requests over an dover, some miltantly as if suggesting that I have no "right" to see them operate if I did not already contribute directly to their operation, and baselessly assuming I would take my shots without dropping a single cent the museum's way, etc. Especially since the last time I asked questions along similar lines, I got the same response. It was tired drivel then, and is even more so the second time around.

Put frankly, I have NEVER had the same off-putting reaction from ANY other museum/preservation group, EVER. Anywhere. Most would appreciate my interest and any goodwill or funding it might bring to their goals, however humble or insignificant they might be. Realistically, we can't all be the "heroes" on Jeff's list. And a hero with a grudge or a "wannabe hero" is not what I mean.

As for the U-boat not being worth the trip? I'm sorry if it may offend some, but I can't change the truth and make everyone happy all the time. For me, personally, it's not worth the trip. Whining about it or chiding me for not being an active RMNE volunteer won't change my opionion or convince me to spend a day and a tank of gas to go see it. The fact is, I know most of the time that is the only loco in regular service (and as I keep trying to convey, I do understand both the practical relaities of historic preservation and that even above and beyond that, there is in fact a preservation aspect to not running a historic loco into the ground). However, all of that does not change the fact that I'm NOT heading to Thomaston to see the U-boat, EVER, and would likewise be dissapointed to make the trip expecting and RS3 or FL9 only to still find the U boat. RMNE is not the only preservation group out thereto whom I have option of visting, supporting, or making a small donation. If some members cannot accept the fact I will choose to visit and lend some humble support when there is something running that I acually want to see running, that is squarely on them to reconcile with themselves. Everyone, everywhere, all the time, is not going to be an RMNE volunteer or major donor, and that's just how life works, like it or not.

[CannaScrews]

I'm glad to see some positive discourse happening.

I think I can speak a bit for the RMNE (as a member of the "Gang of Four") in the sense that the RMNE always welcomes help, support, advice, participation no matter how it comes about.

I think the problem is in the perception of using the internet, and the various forums available, in which statements have been made in one sentence which can be construed the wrong way - and off we go to the flame wars.

Everyone I know in the organization would say - yeah, I won't drive 6 hours if so and so isn't there when I get there. Not a problem. Where the hackles get raised is the magic 5 words, which haven't been said here - and no one infers that.

I can sympathize with Noel in where he is tilting at windmills of other organizations for his remarks - in which I see as "if you can see your way to it, help in all forms are needed - just don't say I'm coming & get ready for me" cause that's what he is trying to correct/enlighten people in a different circumstance. Noel- I apoligise if I'm off target.

I've know Otto for years and whilst he likes to argue and rebut, he does have the RMNE and other organizations which he supports with his time at heart.

It's a shame you live 3 hours away, otherwise it would have been nice to give you a tour of the joint & answer your questions in person.

The 2019 may be available for service depending on the circumstances of motive power at the time. It is stored serviceable, but, unfortunately is not equipped for cold weather service (no heater) as does the 2203. Yes, it could be placed in the shop, but that has other ramifications. It also, as you know is a single ended locomotive, so operational consideration must be taken into account.

No, don't quote me as I'm not involved with the mechanical department, which is the other issue. The RMNE has gotten to the point where most of the personnel has to specialize their efforts. We cannot flit from project to project anymore. Some skills which are being developed will only be used for certain projects and so most people are unaware of the status/priorities of other projects.

We try to keep people in the loop through our online newsletters, which is fairly current, and answer questions on online forums. The problem with the online forums is you get only the participants of the forums, not necessarily the participants of the projects in question.