New Start Projects

Well, just ask my friend in Concord, PA.
He lives very close to Rt. 322 - the segment between Rt. 1 and I-95.
Lots of his neighbors' houses are being demolished so they can widen it to 4 lanes.
This happens all the time for highway projects.
As for the CCM, you assert on the one hand that it's in an out-of-the-way location while, on the other, you say a lot of residential housing would be in the way?!
The CCM would only have to connect with the existing Septa rail network in 2 or 3 places.
The 2 major ones that I can think of (Ft. Wash. and the W. Trenton Line) are NOT near any residential homes. In fact, at Ft. Wash. there actually is an abundance of unused, open land to make a connector.
Where it crosses the W. Trenton Line, there are only abandoned parking lots!

JSC: I'd suggest you find the actual plans for CCM before commenting on it. They are on SEPTA's capitol budget, located here: http://www.septa.org/inside/reports/FY05capbudprop.pdf

As you can see, the current plan is for the line to run down the Trenton Cutoff only as far as the turnoff for the connector to the former Pennsy Norristown line shortly before the Schuykill River Bridge. It'd duck under the Cutoff and join the R6 Norristown to arrive at Norristown Transportation Center. West of NTC it'd cross the bridge that freights currently use, and which SVM is slated to have electrified and used by those trains, then switch off onto it's own tracks and find a route up to the KOP Mall. There'd be stops at Valley Forge (possibly shared with SVM trains?), First Ave, and Plaza Court before arriving at KOP mall. I think the current plan is to have CCM run on an elevated structure (possibly over 422?) north of the mall to where it will be joined by the Rt100 KOP extension for a shared station at the mall (I don't think property owners have been consulted, nor air-rights discussed). South of the mall they'd split up, Rt100 going east toward the trunk, CCM going west with the Cutoff once more to Thorndale.

I work in Ft Washington and just got home a half-hour ago. I sat on the turnpike wading my way through a long line of traffic waiting to get off at both 611 and the Boulevard. I can assure you that few of the people out there with me looked as though they were coming from the mall. The need for CCM is evident in a few commutes on the Turnpike. If I-95 is to be joined to 276 then traffic woes must be alleviated beforehand or it'll be one long backup from Rt 13 to the Valley Forge toll. With properly sized station parking lots, more collector buses similar to the 201 and a no-fare collection policy for those buses with presenting of a checked SEPTA regional rail ticket (hell if you have montly transpass, the bus is free anyway!), the system could work well.

Philadelphia has a passable radial network extending out from the city, but we have no real cross-county transit on an east-west basis. The Rt101 and Rt100 provide a good north-south cross-county route, but anyone wishing to go from Plymouth Meeting (which would also gain Regional Rail access nearly directly with CCM) to anywhere in Southern Bucks County basically has to go into the city on Regional Rail (after a long bus ride to get to the regional rail) and then ride back out, or transfer between Suburban and City Division buses several times to get a near-straight route. CCM would eliminate this problem and get people off the Turnpike. SVM, the resumption of abandoned trolley lines and other projects are all important, but I think CCM should be given precidence over the others given the breakneck growth of the area it will serve.

Nacho66 wrote:... you assert on the one hand that it's in an out-of-the-way location while, on the other, you say a lot of residential housing would be in the way?!

The point I was trying to make is that the line as planned does not go into those areas that are high-density. For it to actually serve them, yet maintain the bulk of its east-west orientation along existing corridors, would require significant detours or radial lines that impinge on areas that would require destroying existing residential areas.

The point that such destruction does happen for highways is well-taken. However, the mindset of most people is such that highways are considered municipal projects that can't be stopped, while rail lines are considered private operations that can be halted with enough screaming. False, false, false, but perception is 90% of "reality" for most people.

When I heard people in K of P squawking about the noise level of the 100 extension, I pointed out that an expanded 202/422 would be a h*** of a lot louder. The result was a lot of blank stares.

However, the mindset of most people is such that highways are considered municipal projects that can't be stopped

Perhaps they need to take a lesson from the "noble NIMBYs" that defeated the construction of the Lower Manhattan Expressway by the seemingly-unstoppable Robert Moses.

Irish,

I saw a NJN documentary on Mr. Moses very recently. The footage was fantastic.
IMHO, the very BEST part of the CCM is the fact that the Cutoff goes through densely populated areas while NOT intruding on existing real estate.
Currently, for example, there is a tremendous amount of available land for a park-n-ride where the line crosses County Line Rd.
Imagine all the destinations you would have available.
Enviro-Impact Studies should be minimal - it's already an active line that used to be double-tracked. That is, except for new junctions and stations.
I think many people would take the train to NYC (once they knew) from just such a station. County Line - NYP = 1 hour, 40 mins - 2-seat ride!
This line could be the first positive move in MontCo. transportation policy in 40-50 years.
It's badly needed.

Nacho66 wrote:The Cross-County Metro would serve a tremendous portion of the population of the Philly Suburbs.[snip]
Not only would this route bisect at least 3 active Septa raillines, it would allow intra-suburban commuting where it's needed most. It parallels the PA Tpk. almost the whole way!

But where the [bowa] do you think they're gonna go???

And have you actually considered the alignment of the tracks in the destinations you're talking about? Take Fort Washington for example. The Cut-Off is on the wrong side of the Turnpike, hemmed in on the south by a hill, and too far from the present R5 station to move or extend the station and too close for a new one.

OK, now you talk about feeder buses. First of all you have to get them to the Cut-Off, which is gonna require a new bridge over the Turnpike, at minimum. Then you've gotta consider the length of the trip and the number of stops to be made in order to serve all the employers in the office park. How long is that ride going to be? Is it going to be competitive in any way with the auto?

And that still doesn't do anything about the other end. You're expecting people to voluntarily choose a three-seat ride over just staying in their car and getting on the Turnpike. Get real!

Now finally King of Prussia. Most of the workers at the mall are coming from the city, not from Bucks and eastern Montgomery counties. The P&W branch makes a lot more sense than Cross-County.

Easy access to potential stations on the Cutoff abound.
For example, Dresher.
Where the Cutoff goes over Susquehanna Rd., there is ample available space for a station, direct access to local roads, and parking.
Same for County Line Rd, the Oreland side of Ft. Wash., and at least 2 potential sites near Plymouth Mtg.
Also, I don't understand your wording regarding "3-seat rides".
Perhaps you view the CCM as a route just to generate riders; I also see it as a way for 1-seat rides between rail routes - i.e. between the R5 and the R3, or between the R6 and the R5. NYP would only be a 2-seat ride from any station on this line!
Development along this route has been exploding for the last 15 years. This line no longer goes through nowhere.

The problem with SEPTA's planned CCM is that it was planned too late and relies on existing ROWs that may be cheaper and easier but only get riders close to their destinations.

Let's compare our idea of Metros (CCM and SVM) to planned Metros. The DC Metro and San Fran Bart were planned and built into outlying areas before the areas became fully developed. The stations acted as town centers with shopping, offices, and homes within walking distance, built with anticipation of a new Metro station. The Metro connects directly with Crystal City Mall and offices in NoVA or Bethesda Center in MD for example. For the CCM to be truly successful, it would have to leave the existing right of way a number of times to truly connect to say the Metroplex in Plymouth Meeting, the mall at KoP, the office parks in Hosham, not Willow Grove, etc.

I don't know how this line could realistically go any closer to these places without actually going through their lobbies!
The Dresher station alone would be within a 1/4 mile of the Ft. Wash. Indus. Park! Same for the Metroplex.
Also, don't forget the new Philly commuters who would have 1-seat rides from their very own communities.
Also, I know many people who would love to go to, say Plymouth Mtg. from Jenkintown or Willow Grove by way of Lansdale.
The major point here is NOT having to go all the way into CC just to go a few towns over.

walk from the Plymouth Mtg mall to the closest point of the Trenton Cutoff. In the rain. Or snow. Then repeat at KoP. And Ft. Washington. (note that the plan gets a little hazy when it tries to explain how it gets into the KoP mall complex). You will then understand why people are saying that the line gets close but still not close to destinations. Transit works best when it gets people into the middle of a high density community. (either residential, commercial or best both.) but not very well in the sprawl that is north of Philadelphia. These areas are completely unplanned development and there isn't much that can be done for them transit wise. The people who get to make the decisions WRT transit starts know this and know that CCM would generate fewer riders than just about anything. MontCo likes the idea, though, because they'd get something that doesn't involve Philadelphia so even though it wouldn't improve regional mobility much (if at all) SEPTA keeps it on the "long range" (ie pie-in-the-sky) list for political reasons. The subway extension and SVM would both generate more trips per dollar spent and releave exisitng congestion on the highways more than CCM ever would.

Nacho66 wrote:Easy access to potential stations on the Cutoff abound.
For example, Dresher.
Where the Cutoff goes over Susquehanna Rd., there is ample available space for a station, direct access to local roads, and parking.
Same for County Line Rd, the Oreland side of Ft. Wash., and at least 2 potential sites near Plymouth Mtg.

I'm quite familiar with both those areas. In Fort Washington, stations are proposed at the two locations you mention: Dreshertown and the R5 connection. While there's space for a station and access to Susquehanna Rd., it's still a long and roundabout trip to get to the offices in Fort Washington. It's even more roundabout from the R5 location.

As for Plymouth Meeting, the proposed station location is near where the Cut-Off goes over Butler Pike. It's a cornfield, literally. There's nothing but a coupla small industrial buildings and Danella Corp even a long walking distance from that site.

Also, I don't understand your wording regarding "3-seat rides".

Well let's take a hypothetical commuter: call him "Andy." Andy is a longtime supporter of public transit who lives in Newtown, Bucks County; and a number of years ago, he took a job in one of those office buildings in King of Prussia.

If we had a Cross-County Metro, here's what his commute would look like. He drives down to Woodbourne, parks his car, waits for the train, and rides all the way to First Avenue (we'll assume the Cross-County Metro detours through Norristown as Montco would like it to[#]). He gets off at First Avenue (which is just the other side of the Turnpike from the malls in King of Prussia, and he's still a mile away from his office as the crow flies, more like a mile and a half to get there via First Ave and Allendale Road. Too far to walk, so he's gotta take a shuttle bus. Because the offices in this area are so sprawled out, that bus goes all over hell's half acre before getting to Andy's office.

Even assuming a good connection, it probably takes 15 to 20 minutes to get that last mile of the trip. So it'll be on the order of an hour and a half total to make that trip via the Cross-County Metro. Driving, Mapquest tells me, is gonna take just 50 minutes. That's an extra hour plus every day. You think anybody's gonna do that by choice?

Perhaps you view the CCM as a route just to generate riders; I also see it as a way for 1-seat rides between rail routes - i.e. between the R5 and the R3, or between the R6 and the R5. NYP would only be a 2-seat ride from any station on this line!

A one-seat ride between rail routes is still a three-seat ride overall, with two waits for transfers. Remember that a transfer enroute cuts your potential ridership in half.

Development along this route has been exploding for the last 15 years. This line no longer goes through nowhere.

Agreed that the areas the line goes through aren't "nowhere"(*), and haven't been for a while; the geography of the line, usually being on the wrong side of the Turnpike (same thing in the Willow Grove-Horsham area), means you can't get there from here.

#--if the XCM stays on the Trenton Cut-Off, which is a lot cheaper than detouring through Norristown and King of Prussia, the situation is even worse, because Andy's shuttle bus has to go all the way from the South Gulph park/ride, through the congested 202/South Gulph intersection, wait for the lights at the mall entrances off 202, left onto Allandale, and eventually to Andy's office.

*--in fact, the development around Fort Washington is old enough that stuff is actually being torn down and rebuilt these days: see the former Amtrak reservations center for example.

Transfers are a fact of life when it comes to public transit. Anyone who drives to a train station is already making a transfer, from the car to the train. For people that use city transit, transfers are accepted as a neccecary evil. There really is no getting around without making transfers.

If we are going to have a rail system that is transfer free, then we're limiting ourselves to a market of people who live close enough to walk to the train station, or those who can drive and find a parking spot. On the other end, we're limiting ourselves to those who are within walking distance of their office, which means Market St, JFK, Arch, Race, Chestnut and maybe Walnut Street.

What we need is a redefinition of how our system works. The major sticking point is how our bus system is used. As evil as they are, buses could play a major role in making CCM, as well as the rest of our rail system more practical.

True, no one wants to wait when making a transfer, it not only makes the trip longer, but it can be very unpleasant in bad weather. So why can't we set up bus routes at outlying stations that were timed to allow riders on both the train and bus to make their connection without wait?

Easy connections would not only encourage more riders, but it would allow riders to leave their cars at home. I think there are very few bus routes in the suburbs that actually go through suburban neighborhoods and deliver people to regional rail stations to catch morning trains to Center City.

I've tried, but the nay-sayers win.
The PA Tpk. has recently upped tolls by 42% - the congestion is horrible and the local roads and X-Ways are horrible.
If this were Chicago or, even San Jose, the CCM would be built. It's a no-brainer - an existing rail corridor that needs passenger trains.
Deep sigh.
Welcome to Philly...

Nacho66 wrote:It's a no-brainer - an existing rail corridor that needs passenger trains.
Deep sigh.
Welcome to Philly...

The problem is that it's not a no-brainer. Look back over the excellent arguments made against the CCM and note how impractical the line is, especially when compared to the other potential projects out there (Roosevelt Blvd Subway, SVM, Route 100 Extension which serves a similar purpose to the CCM but actually goes TO the malls...).

f this were Chicago or, even San Jose, the CCM would be built.

If Chicago or San Jose want to focus on building less popular and less useful rail lines while we focus on building big people-movers, I say let them and "Welcome to Philly...".

focus on building big people-movers

That isn't worth anything. The Trenton cutoff is complete and in use, with only stations and perhaps the second track to be rebuilt (re-routing notwithstanding). The Roosevelt Subway has one of the highest ridership projections and highest recovery per fare projections of all projects in the country. We have 2 trolleys that are completely operable that have been unused on a regular basis for 12 years. We have a rail line that is in deteriorated (although operable) shape but can be fixed at a relatively minimal cost, but has been disused since 1986. These are few of many examples. Philadelphia, transit-wise DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. Big people mover or not, NOTHING EVER HAPPENS.