• maryland state rail plans out

  • Discussion pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in Delaware, Maryland, Virginia and Washington, D.C.
Discussion pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in Delaware, Maryland, Virginia and Washington, D.C.

Moderator: therock

  by STrRedWolf
 
Okay, trying to reduce this down... Section 3 has the "future plans": (a lot has cleared the EIS/Enviro Assessment)
  • B&P/Frederick Douglass Tunnel
  • Susquehana River Bridge Replacement: 4 track, fixed span, 160 MPH speeds.
  • Baltimore Penn Station (in progress)
  • Amtrak: Replace the signal system with a newer one.
  • GROVE interlock replacement for faster speeds and fourth track.
  • New Carrollton Track 1 Platform (option for track 4)
  • BWI Station 4 track project
  • NEC North of Baltimore needs 4-tracking and replacing Gunpowder and Bush river bridges. High-level platforms for MSA, Edgewood, Aberdeen, Perryville.
  • Engine and passenger car overhauls/replacements.
  • Station updates, including West Baltimore replacement.
  • Eliminate at-grade pedestrian crossings along CSX tracks
  • Penn-Camden connector
  • MARC Run-through at WAS
  • MARC connection for SEPTA
  • MARC service extending to southern MD, western MD, and along CSX Old Main Line (restoring Ellicot City station)
  • MARC Delamarva service: Newark, DE to Ocean City, MD
  • Monorail down I-270
  • Maglev project
  by Sand Box John
 
  • MARC Delamarva service: Newark, DE to Ocean City, MD
It's going to cost a hell of a lot more then $400 to $770 million to bring passengers service to West Ocean City. The track between Newark and Harrington and east to Georgetown is and combination of class 2 (30 mph) and class 3 (60 mph) south of Georgetown to Berlin is between class 2 and class 3 (40 mph). The banked right of way between Berlin and West Ocean City has no track. Roughly a mile of the length of the right of way in West Ocean City has a paved street on it. There is no banked right of way connecting the Maryland & Delaware Railroad Selbyville to Snowhill line that connect to the former Chesapeake and Atlantic Railway banked right of way to West Ocean City.
  by GojiMet86
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:41 pm Okay, trying to reduce this down... Section 3 has the "future plans": (a lot has cleared the EIS/Enviro Assessment)
  • Monorail down I-270
  • Maglev project

Ewww.

I understand that there is always a desire to be "innovative", but the state really should drop these two and stick to established transportation. Then again, they almost considered that Hyperloop Boring Tunnel line......
  by gprimr1
 
Some of these look promising.

The Baltimore Tunnel replacement will do a lot of good, as well as the Bridge Replacements.

Southern Maryland MARC service in my opinion is the easiest bang for the buck. The track is barely used by CSX and has good wye access to the NEC. I would propose the trains run MAS from the wye to Union Station and use the New Carlton bypass.

I'm wondering how Baltimore to Frederick MARC service over the OML would work. That's still a fairly active line.

MARC to the Eastern Shore, I like it, and I think a lot of people would use it. The Berlin right away I see is problematic, so what I would do is build a large station where the line crosses MD-90 called "Ocean Transfer." The line can still terminate in Berlin though. At Ocean Transfer, you'll board a bus to Ocean City, which is included in the ticket price. There will be two bus routes. One from Inlet-61st Street and one from 62nd-MD Line.

I am 100% against the Maglev and Monorail when there are so many other useful projects that will do so much more good.

Lastly, I'll ask the question...

With the amount of growth in south central PA, is it time for Maryland to start talking about relaying the NCR and establishing a York to Baltimore route?
  by scratchyX1
 
gprimr1 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:52 pm Some of these look promising.

The Baltimore Tunnel replacement will do a lot of good, as well as the Bridge Replacements.

The Tunnel replacement needs to drop the freight tunnel , there is maybe one train a night.
Putting in a connection at bayview, and restoring the camden connection to use Howard street tunnel would make more sense. Or, since there isn't that much traffic, have CSX or another company serve customers, south of bayview to DC.

Southern Maryland MARC service in my opinion is the easiest bang for the buck. The track is barely used by CSX and has good wye access to the NEC. I would propose the trains run MAS from the wye to Union Station and use the New Carlton bypass.

This has been studied , a few times.
https://www.charlescountymd.gov/home/sh ... 9546200000
The issues are that bowie interlocking would need to be redone, and The route would require quite a few over passes, and complete rebuild to even reach 79mph.
That said, a mix of fast service to DC, and slower locals running every 20 minutes to bowie station, so there are connections to either DC, or baltimore, could work. The area is fast growing, so a brightline type real estate/rail service operation could be feasible.

I'm wondering how Baltimore to Frederick MARC service over the OML would work. That's still a fairly active line.

The problem is the MAS at best is 40mph, and stations are away from housing developments.
Even if there wasn't that much traffic, it couldn't be rebuilt to be competitive with highways.
Regular Buses with BRT type stations on the 70MPH rt70 run would make more sense.
Or even (using one of the MTA proposals for central maryland transportation), BRT from baltimore to chatam mall area ellicott city,and then continuing on RT 70 to frederick.

MARC to the Eastern Shore, I like it, and I think a lot of people would use it. The Berlin right away I see is problematic, so what I would do is build a large station where the line crosses MD-90 called "Ocean Transfer." The line can still terminate in Berlin though. At Ocean Transfer, you'll board a bus to Ocean City, which is included in the ticket price. There will be two bus routes. One from Inlet-61st Street and one from 62nd-MD Line.

I don't see a direct connection across the Bay, but Expresses on the NEC, which then go south on delmarva trackage upgraded to 79mph, could be popular. Though, It's something Maryland and Delaware could work on jointly, As folks may also want to go the beaches north of Ocean City, too.


I am 100% against the Maglev and Monorail when there are so many other useful projects that will do so much more good.

Lastly, I'll ask the question...

With the amount of growth in south central PA, is it time for Maryland to start talking about relaying the NCR and establishing a York to Baltimore route?

The question is, would one run faster commuter type trains, on the same ROW as the light rail?
The light rail maxes out at 50 mph, It would be slower than the Rabbit buses now running on I83 from york.
Now, rebuilding that lightly user former WM to that area, and running DMU at least to west Baltimore MARC station,
That could work.
  by gprimr1
 
I'm not sure the WM would work. Cockeysville is home to ALOT of office parks. I think there would need to be a study first on what percentage of people are using the Rabbit service to commute to Cockeysville, vs using it to connect to the Light Rail. Cockeysville workers won't commute to West Baltimore, then back to Cockeysville.

How much of the light rail could be third-tracked between Warren Road and the downtown street running? Even if the DMUs were limited to light rail speeds, if the light rail could be triple tracked, it could at least enable peak direction express service like how the 7 train in NYC operates and might be rush hour traffic if it made an extremely limited number of stops.

Plus I think with the Wye still preserved at Warren Road, it would be possible to operate a "Hunt Valley Line" and a "Baltimore Line." Hunt Valley trains would turn west at the wye and serve the Cockeysville stations, Baltimore trains would go south through the wye.
  by gprimr1
 
Delaware could def benefit from the MARC Eastern Shore Line. While I think there should be "Ocean Express" service like how the LIRR runs the Cannonball to Montauk, there should still be more basic service with stops along the spine of Delaware.

Ocean City though is uniquely suited for this. Ocean City has a limited access semi-express road going into it with MD-90, which is also essentially built at the halfway point. That road also crosses the railroad in an unbuilt-up area, thus making a bus transfer incredibly easy to operate. Delaware beaches lack the higher speed road Ocean City has, thus bus service will be less efficient, but still doable.
  by gprimr1
 
https://www.charlescountymd.gov/home/sh ... 9546200000

I'd like to see them redo this with Morgantown shutting down and Chalk Point shut down.

Also, Table 14, it looks like they really only need to find 34 minutes. Even if they could do an initial build-out and get the line to 59mph, and maybe get within 15 minutes of the bus, I wonder if people would go for the train since the bus can get hit with traffic.

Also moving Bowie interlocking south just seems to make sense.
  by STrRedWolf
 
scratchyX1 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:39 pm The Tunnel replacement needs to drop the freight tunnel , there is maybe one train a night.
Putting in a connection at bayview, and restoring the camden connection to use Howard street tunnel would make more sense. Or, since there isn't that much traffic, have CSX or another company serve customers, south of bayview to DC.
The thing here is that Bayview is two yards, CSX and NS, next to each other separated by Amtrak track. You may have freight along the NEC but you also have freight that's sharing Light Rail track at North Avenue, where there's was a yard "behind" the Light Rail shop there. I don't know how much freight traffic is on it now.
I'm wondering how Baltimore to Frederick MARC service over the OML would work. That's still a fairly active line.
The problem is the MAS at best is 40mph, and stations are away from housing developments.
Even if there wasn't that much traffic, it couldn't be rebuilt to be competitive with highways.
Regular Buses with BRT type stations on the 70MPH rt70 run would make more sense.
Or even (using one of the MTA proposals for central maryland transportation), BRT from baltimore to chatam mall area ellicott city,and then continuing on RT 70 to frederick.
Well, the track would hit city centers, like Ellicot City's Main Street, but for into-Baltimore commuting? Yeah, there's a lot of track and tunnel rebuilding that needs to happen, and you might as well lay down new track along I-70... and rebuild the B&P because you'll be using it, and you'll be missing a lot of cities and TOD opportunities.
MARC to the Eastern Shore, I like it, and I think a lot of people would use it. The Berlin right away I see is problematic, so what I would do is build a large station where the line crosses MD-90 called "Ocean Transfer." The line can still terminate in Berlin though. At Ocean Transfer, you'll board a bus to Ocean City, which is included in the ticket price. There will be two bus routes. One from Inlet-61st Street and one from 62nd-MD Line.
I don't see a direct connection across the Bay, but Expresses on the NEC, which then go south on delmarva trackage upgraded to 79mph, could be popular. Though, It's something Maryland and Delaware could work on jointly, As folks may also want to go the beaches north of Ocean City, too.
I can see where trains across the Bay at the Bay Bridge would be viable. We have numerous commuter buses doing the Annapolis/Kent Island to DC run. I bet they're back to full now. They're overdue for running rail.
With the amount of growth in south central PA, is it time for Maryland to start talking about relaying the NCR and establishing a York to Baltimore route?
The question is, would one run faster commuter type trains, on the same ROW as the light rail?
The light rail maxes out at 50 mph, It would be slower than the Rabbit buses now running on I83 from york.
Now, rebuilding that lightly user former WM to that area, and running DMU at least to west Baltimore MARC station,
That could work.
Right now, there's the Rabbit Express 83s, which is commuter bus that hits two Light Rail stops. It makes four trips daily, and not all stops (mostly rush hours for all stops). I can't see that happening when it looks like it's servicing mostly jobs in the Hunt Valley/Timonium area. York to Baltimore Inner Harbor? That's "how many cars can we get off I-83" question that needs studying.
  by scratchyX1
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:42 pm
scratchyX1 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:39 pm The Tunnel replacement needs to drop the freight tunnel , there is maybe one train a night.
Putting in a connection at bayview, and restoring the camden connection to use Howard street tunnel would make more sense. Or, since there isn't that much traffic, have CSX or another company serve customers, south of bayview to DC.
The thing here is that Bayview is two yards, CSX and NS, next to each other separated by Amtrak track. You may have freight along the NEC but you also have freight that's sharing Light Rail track at North Avenue, where there's was a yard "behind" the Light Rail shop there. I don't know how much freight traffic is on it now.
scratchyX1 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:39 pm I don't think there is any freight traffic whatsoever on the light rail, now. At times in the last decade, it's looked like the connection had been cut. I know the intermodal yard is disused. I know there was an attempt by someone to sue the state to be able to serve customers on the north end of the light rail, (there was a city paper article, 15 years ago), but no one takes it seriously. It's a shame, McCormick recently built a Logistics center at Sparrows point, I bet it would likely be a few freight cars of traffic daily from Hunt Valley. Maybe Canton Railroad could do so, with trackage rights.
I think the first freight customer south of bayview is CDF, which is also south of the claremont branch.
I'm wondering how Baltimore to Frederick MARC service over the OML would work. That's still a fairly active line.
The problem is the MAS at best is 40mph, and stations are away from housing developments.
Even if there wasn't that much traffic, it couldn't be rebuilt to be competitive with highways.
Regular Buses with BRT type stations on the 70MPH rt70 run would make more sense.
Or even (using one of the MTA proposals for central maryland transportation), BRT from baltimore to chatam mall area ellicott city,and then continuing on RT 70 to frederick.
Well, the track would hit city centers, like Ellicot City's Main Street, but for into-Baltimore commuting? Yeah, there's a lot of track and tunnel rebuilding that needs to happen, and you might as well lay down new track along I-70... and rebuild the B&P because you'll be using it, and you'll be missing a lot of cities and TOD opportunities.
scratchyX1 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:39 pm I don't think there is enough traffic through howard county to warrant that much construction. It's Sprawl west of where the Enchanted Forest used to be. Plus, main street Ellicott City isn't where people live and work (it's half facades, post floods, anyway) "downtown" Ellicott city is up at Golden Triangle, on Rt 40.
There really isn't a downtown New Market, or West Friendship, and Mt Airys business district is on top of the tunnel. The fairgrounds could make do with a BRT station (with tunnel under 70) for special events, going by how packed the roads were for the Night Market there, recently. And Turf Valley could have a station (with shuttle buses serving the area).
I think it's about 30 miles from Bethany Lane to Frederick Bus terminal.
MARC to the Eastern Shore, I like it, and I think a lot of people would use it. The Berlin right away I see is problematic, so what I would do is build a large station where the line crosses MD-90 called "Ocean Transfer." The line can still terminate in Berlin though. At Ocean Transfer, you'll board a bus to Ocean City, which is included in the ticket price. There will be two bus routes. One from Inlet-61st Street and one from 62nd-MD Line.
I don't see a direct connection across the Bay, but Expresses on the NEC, which then go south on delmarva trackage upgraded to 79mph, could be popular. Though, It's something Maryland and Delaware could work on jointly, As folks may also want to go the beaches north of Ocean City, too.
I can see where trains across the Bay at the Bay Bridge would be viable. We have numerous commuter buses doing the Annapolis/Kent Island to DC run. I bet they're back to full now. They're overdue for running rail.
scratchyX1 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:39 pm I Think it would be a lot more cost effective to rebuild DCL to 60mph (if not 79mph), and use the Speeds on the NEC
to go around, than rebuild (or realistically, build brand new ROW) the route from Kent island and a new Bay Bridge.
Honestly, with Sea Level Rise, by the time one got a rail line built across bay to OC, there won't be an OC anymore.
With the amount of growth in south central PA, is it time for Maryland to start talking about relaying the NCR and establishing a York to Baltimore route?
The question is, would one run faster commuter type trains, on the same ROW as the light rail?
The light rail maxes out at 50 mph, It would be slower than the Rabbit buses now running on I83 from york.
Now, rebuilding that lightly user former WM to that area, and running DMU at least to west Baltimore MARC station,
That could work.
Right now, there's the Rabbit Express 83s, which is commuter bus that hits two Light Rail stops. It makes four trips daily, and not all stops (mostly rush hours for all stops). I can't see that happening when it looks like it's servicing mostly jobs in the Hunt Valley/Timonium area. York to Baltimore Inner Harbor? That's "how many cars can we get off I-83" question that needs studying.
scratchyX1 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:39 pm Oh boy! Yet another study the state can do, and file away with the Ark of the Covenant.
Seriously, how much commuting is being done from south PA, post covid?
I know people moved there for cheaper cost of living, but many can work remotely.
I also don't know what would be faster, rebuilding the NC from ground up (since i think it's now rated from 10mph), verses the WM which is at least 40. And it'll mean taking away the popular bike trail, for the trains. (trails can be done with commuter/regional rail, look at SMART in california)