• Madrid - Barcelona 220mph High Speed Line opens this month

  • General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.
General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

Moderators: mtuandrew, gprimr1

  by Chafford1
 
The long awaited Spanish high speed line from Madrid to Barcelona debuts this month. Using the German designed S103 Velaro trains (a derivitive of the ICE-3 used on German Railways, the trains will cover 410 miles in 2 hours 35 minutes at a maximum speed of 220mph (350kph). This will make it the fastest commercial conventional train service in the world (exceeding the French TGV Est line which runs at 200mph (320kph).
And, they expect it to be profitable by 2010, running without subsidies.

Here's the full article from the British 'Guardian' newspaper (link and below).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article ... 64,00.html


Train in Spain sets out to beat the plane


Madrid-Barcelona link is part of 220mph network taking on the airlines

Paul Hamilos in Madrid
Saturday February 2, 2008
The Guardian


'Delays and disruption, disgruntled passengers left standing on platforms, accusations of political incompetence and financial mismanagement: the development of the Spanish railway system has a number of things in common with its British counterpart. But when the new high-speed link between Madrid and Barcelona sets off later this month, those complaints will be set aside as the super-slick Ave S103 service carves its way through the Spanish countryside at speeds of nearly 220mph.

The Ave S103 is the kind of train that British commuters can only dream of, and forms the centrepiece of plans to make Spain a model for the rest of Europe, and the world leader in high-speed trains by 2010.
Its 200-metre aluminium chassis carries 404 passengers, whose reclining chairs - which can swivel to face the direction of travel - are fitted with video and music players.

"They are the future of travel in Spain and show that the train is anything but obsolete," said Aberlado Carrillo, the director general of the state rail operator Renfe's high-speed service. "Trains will again be the dominant mode of transport in this country."

In its first term in office, the socialist government of José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero has spent €21bn (£15.7bn) as part of a 15-year €108bn project to transform the rail network. Around 70% of this will be spent on the Ave (short for Alta Velocidad Española, or Spanish high speed).

The aim is to have 10,000km (6,200 miles) of high-speed track in Spain by 2020, meaning that 90% of the population will be no more than 30 miles from a station through which the train passes.

The Barcelona line is to be extended to Perpignan in France, making the Catalan capital just four-and-a-half hours from Paris. Work to join Madrid and Lisbon is under way.

December saw the opening of lines connecting Madrid to Valladolid and to Málaga, which have slashed journey times and proved hugely popular. Carrillo describes the success of these two lines as "unprecedented and well ahead of what we expected. Traffic has doubled on the Málaga line, and grown by 75% on the Valladolid line."

The distinction between the Spanish and British models of investment, says Christian Wolmar, the author of a history of Britain's railways, comes from conflicting philosophies of rail's worth.

"We ignore the social values of trains," he says. "Just as we don't expect motorways to pay their own way, we shouldn't expect trains to.

"All the recent legislation in the UK, with privatisation, franchising and the complex structures of investment, has meant that it is impossible to have a rational transport policy to maximise the use of trains for environmental and economic reasons."

But, says Carrillo: "The Ave has to be profitable. From 2010, it will not receive any public subsidies. Our experience of the Madrid-Seville line is that it will be profitable."

The success of the Madrid-Seville corridor - the first high-speed link, which opened in 1992 - is partly a result of its pricing policy, with affordable tickets that help to keep demand high and trains full. The 290-mile journey takes two-and-a-half hours, and costs between €28.90 (£21.60) and €72.20 (£53.95) - prices that might make British travellers green with envy.

It will be the Madrid-Barcelona connection, though, that will test the high-speed service. Business people in Spain's two largest cities, with a combined population of 10 million, have been crying out for the Ave for decades. But its development has not been without problems. The inauguration was delayed by landslides that brought chaos to Barcelona's commuter service, as contractors rushed to finish the line at the end of last year.

When it finally gets running, the S103 will cover the 410 miles to Barcelona in two hours and 35 minutes, taking two hours off the journey time. But it will face stiff competition from the highly successful air-shuttle, with a route that is one of the busiest in the world.

The "air bridge" operated by Iberia airlines allows passengers to turn up at the airport, buy a ticket, and board, within 20 minutes. Iberia alone has 60 flights a day, carrying 8,000 people.

Antonio Mayo, who is in charge of the service, is not worried by the train. "We have faced competition from other airlines before, and we welcome the fight with the Ave," he says.

"We can offer one thing they cannot - time. In normal circumstances, a businessman can get from his house in Madrid to a meeting in Barcelona in under two-and-a-half hours. The train cannot do this."

Mayo accepts that Iberia will take a hit in the first few months, but he believes that an executive who needs to be in a meeting at 9am will always choose to fly.

Carrillo argues that the comparison between train and plane is a false one. "Time spent in a train is time won, while in a plane it is wasted," he says. "In a train you can work, read, talk, use the internet, eat, or simply relax and enjoy the journey. With a plane, the only objective is to arrive.

"Personally, I am not bothered if the plane arrives 20 minutes earlier than the train. The question is how that time has been used."

The fact that more than 80% of travellers choose the Ave over the plane on the route between Madrid and Seville supports his argument.

There is also the environmental question: trains produce at least four times less carbon dioxide per mile than planes, and even less when compared with short-haul flights. Spain is preparing itself for a future in which there may be limits on the number of flights a person is allowed to take, particularly within the EU.

In the end, says Carrillo, it will come down to the quality of the service: "What we are offering is unavailable in the rest of Europe in terms of comfort, speed and punctuality."

Look away now if you are a British commuter used to mind-numbing delays: if an Ave train arrives more than five minutes late, passengers are reimbursed the full price of their ticket. And the only problem for those hoping to get their money back is that the trains are nearly 98% reliable.'

  by Finch
 
I'm jealous...

  by David Benton
 
Wow , i predict that the air shuttles will take a big hit .

  by Finch
 
In addition, it will be interesting to see if this service actually manages to become self-sufficient.

  by Hebrewman9
 
That speed is incredible. I wonder if rail or maglev will be the real future of high-speed rail (I'm sure that could be discussed to death)

  by Chafford1
 
The service has started at 'only' 186mph (300kph) but top speeds will be increased to 217mph (350kph) once upgraded signalling is in place, hopefully by this summer.

There are currently over 900 flights per week between Madrid and Barcelona, so the chances of commercial success are high.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 406118.ece

  by Nasadowsk
 
<i>That speed is incredible. I wonder if rail or maglev will be the real future of high-speed rail (I'm sure that could be discussed to death)</i>

Rail. Above 200mph, the sheer energy use and it's cost makes going fast at ground level not worth it. With a 150mph+ margin on steel wheel technology, there's no point to maglev anymore - even the Chinese figured that out.

  by Matt Johnson
 
So, are the Talgo 350 trains running on this line, or just the Siemens ICE-derived trains?

  by taoyue
 
Finch wrote: In addition, it will be interesting to see if this service actually manages to become self-sufficient.
Does Spain separate its railways into operations and infrastructure, like most other European countries? It's a lot easier to be self-sufficient when you're only paying fixed track fees. (i.e. you still have capital costs, but only on equipment.)

  by Finch
 
taoyue wrote:
Finch wrote: In addition, it will be interesting to see if this service actually manages to become self-sufficient.
Does Spain separate its railways into operations and infrastructure, like most other European countries? It's a lot easier to be self-sufficient when you're only paying fixed track fees. (i.e. you still have capital costs, but only on equipment.)
I don't know the answer to this question, but I would like to. You mean the infrastructure would be subsidized so the railroad is not so burdened with track maintenance costs and the like?

  by george matthews
 
Finch wrote:
taoyue wrote:
Finch wrote: In addition, it will be interesting to see if this service actually manages to become self-sufficient.
Does Spain separate its railways into operations and infrastructure, like most other European countries? It's a lot easier to be self-sufficient when you're only paying fixed track fees. (i.e. you still have capital costs, but only on equipment.)
I don't know the answer to this question, but I would like to. You mean the infrastructure would be subsidized so the railroad is not so burdened with track maintenance costs and the like?
High Speed rail lines generally are profitable. The European Union rules are that all trains pay the track authority for access.

  by Finch
 
High Speed rail lines generally are profitable. The European Union rules are that all trains pay the track authority for access.
How does this jive with the oft-mentioned "no transit system can be totally self-sufficient, subsidies are necessary" idea? So an individual line may be profitable (like Amtrak's NEC?) but the whole system generally is not?

  by RVRR 15
 
That's transit systems; they run a lot of off-peak services that are not always full, at fares artificially undercut so that they can be affordable. Intercity rail is a different ball game.
  by neroden
 
Also, that's an *operating* profit they'll be running; the line is certainly not going to pay off its capital costs quickly (perhaps eventually, perhaps not).

Re:

  by george matthews
 
Finch wrote:
High Speed rail lines generally are profitable. The European Union rules are that all trains pay the track authority for access.
How does this jive with the oft-mentioned "no transit system can be totally self-sufficient, subsidies are necessary" idea? So an individual line may be profitable (like Amtrak's NEC?) but the whole system generally is not?
It seems many Americans have the fixed idea that no passenger rail service can make a profit. Actually at least two in Britain pay a premium to the Treasury for the right to run trains (East Coast and Gatwick Express). The whole British Rail Inter-City unit was profitable before it was foolishly broken up for some rightwing ideological reason.

The French TGV system is probably profitable.

Amtrak's 1950s-style slow trains probably could never be made profitable. Whether a US TGV system could be remains to be seen. I am sure fast trains would take passengers from air. If you get enough people and keep costs down, why not?