Madrid - Barcelona 220mph High Speed Line opens this month

It appears that the Spanish HSR, AVE, is independent of the State owned RENFE, and will be on a par with the Systems found in France, Germany, and Italy.

Apparently thoguh, there will not be any interchange with the other Western Europe systems; I'm not certain if it runs on Standard or Wide gauge:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124018395386633143.html

Brief passage:

• The growth of the Alta Velocidad Española, or AVE, high-speed rail network is having a profound effect on life in Spain. Many Spaniards are fiercely attached to their home regions and studies show they are unusually reluctant to live or even travel elsewhere.
  
  But those centuries-old habits are starting to change as Spain stitches its disparate regions together with a €100 billion ($130 billion) system of bullet trains designed to traverse the countryside at up to 218 miles an hour.
  
  "We Spaniards didn't used to move around much," says José María Menéndez, who heads the civil engineering department at the University of Castilla-La Mancha. "Now I can't make my students sit still for one second. The AVE has radically changed this generation's attitude to travel."

Gilbert B Norman wrote: Apparently though, there will not be any interchange with the other Western Europe systems; I'm not certain if it runs on Standard or Wide gauge:

It's standard. Which really isn't standard, but that's another discussion.

I'm not sure, but I believe some of their equipment can actually change gauge en-route. I know the change process isn't very involved or slow - it's basically going through what looks like a bent up retarder at 5 or 10 mph..

Nasadowsk wrote:

Gilbert B Norman wrote: Apparently though, there will not be any interchange with the other Western Europe systems; I'm not certain if it runs on Standard or Wide gauge:

It's standard. Which really isn't standard, but that's another discussion.

I'm not sure, but I believe some of their equipment can actually change gauge en-route. I know the change process isn't very involved or slow - it's basically going through what looks like a bent up retarder at 5 or 10 mph..

Some equipment can change gauge - the Talgo to Paris can, I think with variable axles. I once took the sleeper from Madrid to Paris. The cars were lifted up at the frontier (Irun-Hendaye) and bogies slid out and replaced. I didn't wake.

The new AVE will be European gauge. Through TGV trains from Barcelona to Paris will be possible and are planned. Gradually the Iberian gauge will be replaced by standard.

Regarding the gauge change on the fly, "I was robbed" during 1990. I had intended to ride the overnight Sevilla-Barcelona making a connection with the Catalin Talgo riding to Avignon and there changing to a TGV.

However------

RENFE can be Amtrak; there was a snagged caternary wire resulting in a 2hr late arrival in Barcelona and a missed connection with the Talgo. The alternate was a DMU "local" to the border, walk accross, and continue aboard same on SNCF to Beziers with a TGV connection there.

Let's just say, "locals are for the locals" expresses and HSR are where the rich folk and tourists ride.

I don't know if you were that robbed , Gilbert . i rode a talgo from Somewhere to Barcelona ( possibly even Madrid ) , and i was not impressed with the view out the window . i think id rather be on a standard equipment local . Perhaps the international talgo was of a higher standard .

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Apparently thoguh, there will not be any interchange with the other Western Europe systems

Incorrect -- or at any rate correct only for a couple of years. The Madrid-Barcelona line is being extended through a new base tunnel through the Pyrennes (!!) as something called the "LGV Perpignan-Figueres", expected to open sometime this year or 2010, and cutting two hours off the cross-border time -- but still using those Talgo gauge-changers for now.

Barcelona-Figueres AVE is already being built, with expected completion in 2012, which will give a continuous standard-gauge high-speed route from France to Barcelona, Madrid and Seville. This is Spain's big connection to the standard gauge network in the rest of Europe. The full route to Paris will not be high-speed, however, because the line from Perpignan to Montpellier is a "ligne classique" running on 1500V DC power.

george matthews wrote:

Finch wrote:

High Speed rail lines generally are profitable. The European Union rules are that all trains pay the track authority for access.

How does this jive with the oft-mentioned "no transit system can be totally self-sufficient, subsidies are necessary" idea? So an individual line may be profitable (like Amtrak's NEC?) but the whole system generally is not?

It seems many Americans have the fixed idea that no passenger rail service can make a profit. Actually at least two in Britain pay a premium to the Treasury for the right to run trains (East Coast and Gatwick Express). The whole British Rail Inter-City unit was profitable before it was foolishly broken up for some rightwing ideological reason.

The French TGV system is probably profitable.

Amtrak's 1950s-style slow trains probably could never be made profitable. Whether a US TGV system could be remains to be seen. I am sure fast trains would take passengers from air. If you get enough people and keep costs down, why not?

Here in Japan, profitable rail transit is the rule, rather than the exception, in big metro areas. Even up here in relatively sparsely populated Hokkaido, JR Hokkaido's airport rapid service makes a profit. As for HSR, rail operator JR Tokai, based in the car-crazy Tokai region (home to Toyota and Honda) and relatively small and lacking JR East's huge (and profitable) commuter operations, is profitable thanks to its money-making Tokaido Shinkansen service.

SJ turns a profit in Sweeden, too. Banverket's a money pit, but SJ's been profitable since 2003 or so.

The only reason ANYONE in the US thinks rail can't be profitble is Gunn kept saying so while he was at Amtrak, and everyone repeated it. It's about the only memorable highlight of his brief and otherwise pointless tenure at Amtrak.

At the time, I only knew of one profitable tranist agency. Hong Kong's agency makes money "The Pacific Electric Way". They owned the land around the subway stations and make big profits off the leases to the developers that MORE than made up for any operating deficits. That's how the PE financed their extensions except they SOLD the land instead of leasing the parcels adjacent to the new right-of-ways.

Nasadowsk wrote:SJ turns a profit in Sweeden, too. Banverket's a money pit, but SJ's been profitable since 2003 or so.

The only reason ANYONE in the US thinks rail can't be profitble is Gunn kept saying so while he was at Amtrak, and everyone repeated it. It's about the only memorable highlight of his brief and otherwise pointless tenure at Amtrak.

So divide up Amtrak into two companies: one that loses money on tracks, and one that makes money on trains. The second one gets to keep the Amtrak name, which instantly makes Amtrak a "profitable" enterprise.

The New York Times printed a favorable article on the Spanish High Speed AVE:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/scien ... train.html

Brief passage:

• ABOARD THE AVE — Carlos Martínez and his colleagues were enjoying soda and sandwiches in the bar, having chosen not to watch a film — “Appaloosa,” with Ed Harris — that was playing on overhead screens. They barely seemed to notice the arid landscape whizzing by or the digital display reflecting their speed, which hovered around 186 miles per hour.
  
  Since a high-end, high-speed rail connection between Barcelona and Madrid opened in 2008, a 325-mile journey that takes about 6 hours by car can be completed in just 2 hours and 38 minutes, from city center to city center.
  
  Two years ago, nearly 90 percent of the six million people traveling between Madrid and Barcelona went by air. But early this year the number of train travelers on the route surpassed fliers, and the trajectory is ever upward.
  
  The shift has political and economic benefits for Spain, which like other European Union countries has set out to lower its carbon dioxide emissions by 20 percent over the next 10 years. Emissions per passenger on a high-speed train are about one-fourth of those generated by flying or driving.

taoyue wrote:

Nasadowsk wrote:SJ turns a profit in Sweeden, too. Banverket's a money pit, but SJ's been profitable since 2003 or so.

The only reason ANYONE in the US thinks rail can't be profitble is Gunn kept saying so while he was at Amtrak, and everyone repeated it. It's about the only memorable highlight of his brief and otherwise pointless tenure at Amtrak.

So divide up Amtrak into two companies: one that loses money on tracks, and one that makes money on trains. The second one gets to keep the Amtrak name, which instantly makes Amtrak a "profitable" enterprise.

The problem with that theory is that it has been done to death in other countries and most Amtrak system mileage is over privately owned trackage, and sections of the NE Corridor are owned by M-N. Keep in mind that there were catastrophic safety consequences in the UK when such an artificial division was made in the UK. Today, the British taxpayers are paying more in subsidies than ever before while ticket prices are some of the highest in the world. I think it's far too late to pull such a lame ruse again.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:The New York Times printed a favorable article on the Spanish High Speed AVE:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/scien ... train.html

Brief passage:

• ABOARD THE AVE — Carlos Martínez and his colleagues were enjoying soda and sandwiches in the bar, having chosen not to watch a film — “Appaloosa,” with Ed Harris — that was playing on overhead screens. They barely seemed to notice the arid landscape whizzing by or the digital display reflecting their speed, which hovered around 186 miles per hour.
  
  Since a high-end, high-speed rail connection between Barcelona and Madrid opened in 2008, a 325-mile journey that takes about 6 hours by car can be completed in just 2 hours and 38 minutes, from city center to city center.
  
  Two years ago, nearly 90 percent of the six million people traveling between Madrid and Barcelona went by air. But early this year the number of train travelers on the route surpassed fliers, and the trajectory is ever upward.
  
  The shift has political and economic benefits for Spain, which like other European Union countries has set out to lower its carbon dioxide emissions by 20 percent over the next 10 years. Emissions per passenger on a high-speed train are about one-fourth of those generated by flying or driving.

It's hardly a coincidence that Spain is at risk of a debt default and has an unemployment rate around 30%. Here is country that spent big on all forms of infrastructure, ofter far in advance of the economic and population growth. Sure, the trains are nice on every level, the stations are palaces, but you really have to question whether the investment was entirely wise.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

taoyue wrote:

Nasadowsk wrote:SJ turns a profit in Sweeden, too. Banverket's a money pit, but SJ's been profitable since 2003 or so.

The only reason ANYONE in the US thinks rail can't be profitble is Gunn kept saying so while he was at Amtrak, and everyone repeated it. It's about the only memorable highlight of his brief and otherwise pointless tenure at Amtrak.

So divide up Amtrak into two companies: one that loses money on tracks, and one that makes money on trains. The second one gets to keep the Amtrak name, which instantly makes Amtrak a "profitable" enterprise.

The problem with that theory is that it has been done to death in other countries and most Amtrak system mileage is over privately owned trackage, and sections of the NE Corridor are owned by M-N. Keep in mind that there were catastrophic safety consequences in the UK when such an artificial division was made in the UK. Today, the British taxpayers are paying more in subsidies than ever before while ticket prices are some of the highest in the world. I think it's far too late to pull such a lame ruse again.

but , in England , almost the entire fleet has been replaced by new trains since privatisation . they have to be paid for . not disputing it has been poorly handled though .

but , in England , almost the entire fleet has been replaced by new trains since privatisation . they have to be paid for . not disputing it has been poorly handled though .

I used to go to London about once a month and bought a day return at the station for about GBP15. Today I was down at the station to collect a pre-booked ticket. I noticed that the walk-on ticket (bought at the time of travel) has more than doubled in the last ten years. In fact it is about three times at over GBP40.

I booked an advance ticket and the cost is about what the walk-on fare used to be. But one can't always book ahead.