Madrid - Barcelona 220mph High Speed Line opens this month

george matthews wrote: I used to go to London about once a month and bought a day return at the station for about GBP15. Today I was down at the station to collect a pre-booked ticket. I noticed that the walk-on ticket (bought at the time of travel) has more than doubled in the last ten years. In fact it is about three times at over GBP40.

I booked an advance ticket and the cost is about what the walk-on fare used to be. But one can't always book ahead.

From where to where? Those fares aren't much different from the Northeast Corridor. In fact, I don't think you can go very far at all on the NEC for the lower end, and even a cheap fare might be upwards of $60 - $75, so, £40 isn't that out of line with the US...

(A quick check shows NY to New haven at $35 to $75, NY to Stamford ain't any better, and NY to Philly is generally obscene to criminal in price...)

(Spanish HSR development...)

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:It's hardly a coincidence that Spain is at risk of a debt default and has an unemployment rate around 30%.

Other nations have not been half-bankrupted by HSR investment.

Here is country that spent big on all forms of infrastructure, ofter far in advance of the economic and population growth.

How is that supposed to be the case?

Sure, the trains are nice on every level, the stations are palaces, but you really have to question whether the investment was entirely wise.

I disagree. Although HSR lines can be expensive to build, they have relatively low continuing costs, and high-speed trains can easily compete with airplanes. Furthermore, high-speed trains, and electric trains in general, are less vulnerable to shortages of crude oil than airplanes.

lpetrich wrote: I disagree. Although HSR lines can be expensive to build, they have relatively low continuing costs, and high-speed trains can easily compete with airplanes. Furthermore, high-speed trains, and electric trains in general, are less vulnerable to shortages of crude oil than airplanes.

And trains are less vulnerable to weather as well. The only downside of HSR is the high initial cost. Once the line is built, it pays for itself both directly and indirectly.

That ought to be evident in the crippling of the Eurostar trains by powdered snow a few months ago. The trains got moving again a few days later and that incident has not been repeated.

By comparison, airports are much more vulnerable to bad weather.

lpetrich wrote:(Spanish HSR development...)

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:It's hardly a coincidence that Spain is at risk of a debt default and has an unemployment rate around 30%.

Other nations have not been half-bankrupted by HSR investment.

The problem is that Spain has gone a public spending spree, funded largely by public debt and EU money. The real problem is that the infrastructure is now largely overbuilt, the country is nearly bankrupt and the prospects of recovery are poor because Spanish productivity is poor even by European standards. Basically, Spain has been building infrastructure for the sake of employment, not because of real economic growth.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote: The problem is that Spain has gone a public spending spree, funded largely by public debt and EU money.

This differs from the US how, again?

Basically, Spain has been building infrastructure for the sake of employment, not because of real economic growth.

This differs from the US how, again?

lpetrich wrote:That ought to be evident in the crippling of the Eurostar trains by powdered snow a few months ago. The trains got moving again a few days later and that incident has not been repeated.

By comparison, airports are much more vulnerable to bad weather.

That was a very disturbing incident, especially now that we know more about it.
The report showed two main serious faults in the company:
1. Maintenance was skimped. The locomotives had not in fact been winterised, or if so, not done properly
2. Train staff had not been trained for what to do in case of long delays in the Tunnel, something that ought to be foreseen.
3. Eurotunnel was at fault (though they have put out a barrage of denying press statements) by not having a plan for evacuating a number of trains, and not enough rescue trains.

One hopes that both companies will act on the report. When the journey goes well it is much nicer than travelling by air, as I am sure customers in Spain are finding.
(I am puzzled by the pessimism of opponents of High Speed Rail.)

Yeah, you wonder why they even bother to hang out here. It's my view that they work for the Heritage Foundation or the Cato Institute and want to mess with our notions that high speed rail is a good thing.

Nasadowsk wrote:

goodnightjohnwayne wrote: The problem is that Spain has gone a public spending spree, funded largely by public debt and EU money.

This differs from the US how, again?

Basically, Spain has been building infrastructure for the sake of employment, not because of real economic growth.

This differs from the US how, again?

The USA isn't beholden to the eurozone and hasn't signed up for an unrealistic requirement that deficits do not exceed 3 percent of GDP. No country in the eurozone is in compliance. Spain does not make its own currency; everything is dictated by the European Central Bank in Frankfurt, Germany.

Also, Spain doesn't have a military anywhere near the size of the USA's, although they probably have a larger welfare state in terms of entitlements.

Lets not forget , Spain was one of the poorer EU countries originally joining . they may be spending alot on infrastructure , but having been there 20 years ago , they needed too .
Remembering travelling around by rail at that time , hsr is well overdue . Especially Madrid - Barcelona , well Madrid and Barcelonia to anywhere really .
Crossing the border from France to Spain , was sort of like crossing the border from the USA to Mexico . Infrastrucutre wis anyway .

David Benton wrote:Lets not forget , Spain was one of the poorer EU countries originally joining . they may be spending alot on infrastructure , but having been there 20 years ago , they needed too .
Remembering travelling around by rail at that time , hsr is well overdue . Especially Madrid - Barcelona , well Madrid and Barcelonia to anywhere really .
Crossing the border from France to Spain , was sort of like crossing the border from the USA to Mexico . Infrastrucutre wis anyway .

Of course, the problem with that statement is that passenger rail service in Spain was more than adequate in the years immediate proceeding the opening of the AVE. At the time of BR's privatization, most British commuters and intercity passengers would have been shocked by how impressive the Spanish railroad infrastructure had become. Of course, even after the rail infrastructure was largely complete and entirely modern, the Spanish kept on building for the sake of employment, ignoring the problems in the broader Spanish economy. It goes to show that roads, railroads and airports don't directly generate economic activity in a society where the underlying productivity is low and the underlying economic growth is poor.

It goes to show that roads, railroads and airports don't directly generate economic activity in a society where the underlying productivity is low and the underlying economic growth is poor.

Which economists are you reading?
In 1980 I crossed Spain from the Spanish frontier to Madrid, and then on to Algeciras (for Tangier). I enjoyed trundling slowly across the central plain, but it wasn't exactly European style transport. It was not unlike the trains in Morocco (but not crowded). I also enjoyed the full service dining car.

Spain has grown tremendously since then.

I think the US will suffer from its poor passenger rail coverage. Spain certainly benefits from its rail modernising.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

David Benton wrote:It goes to show that roads, railroads and airports don't directly generate economic activity in a society where the underlying productivity is low and the underlying economic growth is poor.

And low productivity in turn may have to do with Spain's climate. As a general rule, people tend to slow down in hotter climates. This is why Mexico's productivity lags that of the US, and probably always will. Air conditioning can help with indoor jobs of course, but that's about it.

I didnt write that quote by the way , the editing has been mixed up . My recolllection of the Spanish railway system back then ( this would be late 80's the last time i was there ) , is similiar to George's .I was in Seville , and the first HSR was been planned to there . The impeteus wasnt to create jobs , it was the coming olympic games , i think . There was no way the existing infrastructure was going to cope .

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:Of course, the problem with that statement is that passenger rail service in Spain was more than adequate in the years immediate proceeding the opening of the AVE. ...

By which standards?

Checking on Madrid–Barcelona high-speed rail line (Wikipedia), I've found Perpignan - Barcelona in 50 mins:
Perpignan - Figueres: before the end of this year
Figueres - Barcelona: 2012
Montpellier - Perpignan: 2021