Location of this LV line?

No house next to the bridge in the aerial from 1 year later than the photo.

ctclark1 wrote:Were it not for the thought that the EB track should be the one out of service, I'd almost say it could be here with a very shortened field of view...

Oh, sorry, here is an older picture. The bridge was replaced after the line came out. The thing that stands out to me is if you zoom in towards the bridge on the overhead, there's a definite dark line on the side of it, indicative of the girder you can see in the picture.

Barring that, I'm still almost positive the second number is a 9. The first number really looks like a 2 to me, but I guess it could be a 3, they both have that curve on the top. I can pretty well make out the tail of the 9 in the second spot though, so I'm fairly certain about that one.

Probably not east of Cayuta (NY Rt. 224), Alpine (NY Rt. 224), NY Rt. 332, Victor (NY Rt. 96) or Clover St. (NY Rt. 65) account have no personal recall of either a signal or a telephone box at those locations (that does appear to be a signal at the right side of the photo). Another puzzle: If that is a signal, why is the train stopped past it? Or is the train, in fact, stopped? If not that photog is in a very unsafe location.

The Alco C628 units were banned off the west end west of Van Etten Jct. late 1972 to early 1973. Queried several LVRR employees about the ban and the B.O. that would initiate the ban. Nobody could come up with a solid answer or a B.O. May have been an order that came down from the division superintendent's office in the form of a note or letter but same has never been discovered. Did take a photo of AP-2 powered by a pair of C628 units passing through Mendon, NY on September 26, 1972. Took another of AP-3 thumping through P&L Jct. with a pair of C628 units on March 3, 1974. Was at Niagara Jct. when Sayre Telegraph requested clearance for this train. The dispatcher restricted the train to 40 mph and mentioned that he had thought those units were banned off the west end. The final LVTT ETT shows no restrictions for Engine Class AFM27 on the main track or passing sidings Van Etten Jct.-Buffalo/Suspension Bridge but the class was restricted off several industrial tracks along that route. The old Lehigh could be quirky.

I know you said you didn't think it would've been Alpine, but after following topo maps from the 60's & '70s (whichever was closest on historic aerials) TT East all the way from P&L Jct, I'm actually thinking maybe... For a few reasons.

Timetable 10 (1975) indicates interlockings at "Hinman" and "Cayuta". This location is right next to the Hinman swamps, and according to the topo maps a third track did converge here, which I'm assuming an interlocking would have a phone box nearby, and the signal blurred on the picture could very well be the westbound absolute guarding the interlocking. (On a side note, I personally would've assumed just from the TT that a siding ran from Hinman to Cayuta but according to the topos the siding actually ran from Alpine west towards but not quite to Odessa, but then again the TT is almost 10 years after the topos I'm looking at, so maybe the west end wasn't interlocked by that time? Or the station names aren't quite accurate to their physical locations and what I'm looking at here is actually "Cayuta" with "Hinman" being closer to Odessa?)

Additionally, prior to the Rt224 bridge, the topos indicate the road came down to a grade crossing to the west of the new bridge, which would correlate to the appearance of the tall utility pole and lines cutting across the picture between the engine and the bridge.

Aerials and topos indicate some kind of farm on the inside of the curve, given the angles it is entirely possible these buildings are hidden although the dark tire tracks/dirt that have been mentioned could very well be from this.

The only thing I unfortunately cannot account for is the appearance of the white building at the base of the fill for the road, which as was point out is also absent from the other location I suggested. It's also hard to correlate to a current image for the same reason as the previous location - the roads have been rebuilt since the line was removed -- the Rt224 bridge no longer exists.

If it's not here, I'm stumped (as an innocent bystander who has little experience with this area of the Lehigh but is still interested to find out), as I said I literally followed the topo maps from P&L all the way to Van Etten and this is the only spot where there's a road bridge over the tracks following an eastward curve to the right... And with an interlocking nearby it makes sense (I honestly had missed the blur being a signal on the right before)

EDIT: (Link for reference)
http://historicaerials.com?layer=T1964& ... 6537628174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EDIT 2:
For S&G's I measured in GE from Van Etten Jct TT west, "Cayuta" does measure correctly to the village, however "Hinman" measures out to be smack damn in the middle of the sidings shown on the topo map. Comparing the later topos this makes sense as it appears whatever sidings there were was cut back drastically by that time. Wish I had an earlier TT to work from but 1975 is the only one I could find at the moment.

Has anyone tried to reach the person who posted that pic? Sounds like HE was there as well as his father, and he might be the best source for a definitive answer.

BR&P wrote:Has anyone tried to reach the person who posted that pic? Sounds like HE was there as well as his father, and he might be the best source for a definitive answer.

I thought the same thing. I was planning on asking the original poster why couldn't he shoot the Flinkr poster the question.

What is it about this photo that makes people convinced we are looking east?

Look above the cab and beyond the bridge; it appears to me to be hills in the background. That should help narrow down the location.

Maybe one of the Bednars might know the location?

Per LVRR ETT No. 7 dated Oct. 25, 1959: Telephones were located at the following Hinman locations:

MP 298.2 East end westward siding
MP 299.1 East end eastward siding
MP 299.79 Post at stop sign on siding
MP 300.8 Pole

Hinman , MP 299.1 sidings as follows:

East: 50 car capacity
West: 175 car capacity

MP 299.1 was east of the NY Rt. 224 bridge (Cayuta Overhead per LVRR track chart)

CTC was effective between Van Etten Jct. and Cayuta Int. July 14, 1964 per LVRR Zone E General Order No. 814 dated July 3, 1964.

The photo is dated 1967. Just the facts.

dj_paige wrote:What is it about this photo that makes people convinced we are looking east?

It's somewhat conflicting. Milepost is on the right so that would suggest looking west. However when the line was single tracked, most often the eastbound was removed because the bridges were in worst shape than on the westbound track. Right hand track in the pic is under maintained or could be out of service. So you pays your money and you takes your choice!

"Took us years to finally catch a Lehigh Valley train in motion."

Would that tell us that LV is on foreign track? or on the track that does not see trains except at night time?

How often did LV ran the trains? What about the branch up to Rochester? I don't think there would be any signals down to Honeoye Falls / Lima so that track is out of questions.

Did LV have trackage right somewhere in NYS that they usually run at nights?

JoeS wrote:Look above the cab and beyond the bridge; it appears to me to be hills in the background. That should help narrow down the location.

That is one of the reasons I'm thinking it might be the Cayuta area. The terrain at Farmington/Route 332 was much flatter.

JoeS wrote:Maybe one of the Bednars might know the location?

The Bednars didn't work west of Sayre (as per Keith and Dan) on LV, so I am not sure if they'd know.

sd80mac wrote:"Took us years to finally catch a Lehigh Valley train in motion."

Would that tell us that LV is on foreign track? or on the track that does not see trains except at night time?

How often did LV ran the trains? What about the branch up to Rochester? I don't think there would be any signals down to Honeoye Falls / Lima so that track is out of questions.

Did LV have trackage right somewhere in NYS that they usually run at nights?

The LV main was much quieter than the major PC or even EL routes in the late '60s and '70s. The traffic volume west of Sayre was about 8-10 road freights per day. Thus hours could pass between trains.

LV did have trackage rights on EL and BCK in greater Buffalo, but the hilly terrain in the photo rules out that area. LV shared power with the N&W for Apollo and Mercury trains, but the telegraph poles are on the wrong side of the track

I've sent the guy an email.

Charles

More Hinman facts to ponder or not to ponder:

Zone E General Order No. 706 effective October 21, 1960: Westward siding Hinman abandoned.

Zone E Bulletin No. 730 effective October 26, 1960: Former passing siding Hinman west 500 feet in service as cripple track.

Zone E Bulletin N. 781 effective August 9, 1962: Eastward siding Hinman shortened to 18 car capacity.

Zone E Bulletin No 846 effective February 4, 1965: Location of telephone MP 299.1 Terry Hill Road. Other telephones at Hinman abandoned.

A reply from George Lane:

"I believe it was in or near Horseheads, NY."

So a detour train on the PRR?