Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

henry6 wrote:The curent 45 passenger projection from Scranton should not be a problem as there are a lot moe people around who were not considered by the survey group.

Considering the cost of this project, you can charter a helicopter for the 45 people for the next 20 years and still cost less than the improvement of the rail line.

I'm still intrigued by the 79 mph forecast. Although several sages have mentioned the DL&W routinely did 80+ on stick rail through the Pokies, I don't see that as a likely outcome. With stations about 10 miles apart, and diesel acceleration such as it is, the efficiency of 79 mph would be pretty minimal

The DL&W had very nicely maintained stick rail, but they never wrote a schedule that planned for 80mph running, anyplace. Even if late or daring engineers ran at 80 or above in parts of the Poconos, I can't imagine that, in today's environment, high speeds would be allowed on the line, and I especially can't imagine NJT would do any high speed running there. (They don't anyplace else, except were Amtrak makes them.) The best we could hope for is 60 or 70 on the plateau between Pocono Summit and the descent to Scranton, and 80 or 90 on the Cutoff itself.

In the unlikely event that they knocked 20 minutes off Phoebe's time between Scranton and Lake Hopatcong, the train wouldn't match Phoebe's time between Lake Hopatcong and Hoboken, because no NJT trains east of Lake Hopatcong (or anywhere else) are as fast as the equivalent DL&W trains. The absolute best you could hope for is that Pennsylvania makes a deal with NJT similar to that betwen NJT and MN, and NJT runs Pocono Expresses that make good time and few stops. If that happens, you might beat Phoebe by a few minutes. It would still be a grueling commute from the Poconos to the NY Metro area. I think under the best of circumstances it would be longer than Port Jervis-Hoboken.

Yup.

Somebody busted my chops earlier in the thread that he personally witnessed the DL&W doing 80+ in the Pokies, so I was willing to concede it has happened. But, not likely to happen today or in the future under NJT.

My sense is the idea of starting at Toby makes a lot of sense for several reasons:

• the military base already has lots of available space for layover, etc
• it's convenient to several centers of population
• it's just outside the two hour commute (using the Twilight sched)
• Very convenient to I-380 and local feeder roads

The only "local feeder roads" in Tobyhanna are routes 611 and 423—both two-lane highways (except 611 within Tobyhanna)...and "Tobyhanna Road" in Goudlsboro, another two-laner. Make Tobyhanna the terminus, and it'll be a bigger mess than it is now (and there's a lot more traffic than one may think, what with the housing communities adjacent).

There is no parking space in Tobyhanna, anywhere in the village. (And yes, it's a village and no larger.) None can be built convenient to the train station. And nobody in Coolbaugh Township would accede to it being built, because route 423 simply cannot take the traffic load.

Using Tobyhanna Army Depot's tracks as layover yards? Out of the question. Not only are there security issues and no maintenance/refueling facilities there, but the crossovers face the wrong way—towards Scranton. Imagine the train not being able to get into the station when the D-L or CP is servicing Keystone Propane? And there's that manual crossover on the Tobyhanna-Gouldsboro road...

As a two-year resident of Tobyhanna, I'm going on record to state that such an idea is a non-starter. The estimate of 45 pax from Scranton daily is grossly understated—Scranton is a far larger city than Port Jervis just for starters, and it's experiencing an economic comeback what with being convenient to Monroe County residents among other factors, not to mention that there is a lot of underutilized railroad property on which station and facilities can be built.

JoeG wrote:It would still be a grueling commute from the Poconos to the NY Metro area

Try driving it during 6 am, Joe (and leaving your house at 5 am—you'd reach Exit 27 in NJ at 6, and the traffic would be there ahead of you). I did that for the first half of 2003, and I was going to/from Linden. Sometimes took four hours eastbound—without accidents on the highway. A train would be far, far less "grueling"...

Never mind the "45"—the fact is there is a lot more people north, west, and south of Scranton not accounted for in the survey. Plus facilites are or could easily be erected there. Plus no train leaves its end point terminal full! Running a train from Scranton has better growth potential that from Gouldsboro or Tobyhanna.

No professional is flinching at a 3 hour or less schedule from Scranton either.

DL men have told me of 100+ running on the Cut Off. Making up time was utilizing the whole 79 or 80 (depending which year) that was allowed.

The 79 mph was common across the Cut-Off and westbound after Cross Keys (the point in the Pocono's where the DL&W was highest in elevation). Then there was a lot of running at that speed in Western NY. The employees timetable somewhere around 1957-58 reduced the entire road to 70 mph.

Perry M. Shoemaker was the President who put in speed restrictions, and the DL&W speed board signs of a yellow diamond and a black rectangle underneath it throughout the company. He made sure speed governers were put on the new E8s. The E8 governers would throw on the emergency at 72 mph when I got a lot of cab rides.

But, yes, prior to that there had been a lot of 90 - 100 mph running across the Cut-off when needed to make up speed. I remember some engineers also saying there was some 70-80 mph westbound on the middle track through Mountain Station as well.

Things can change. It took a decade to get the Morrisville Yard ready and open for use. It took a decade to design and build the Montclair connection, so another decade isn't unlikely for the Cut-Off and upgrade of the Pennsy side.

I'm very leery of asserting that the DL&W did 100 mph in 1950, so NJT can do it too. The 1940s and 1950s were a different era, with a different culture. I'm gonna stick with the prediction that the new schedule (in 2015 or whenever) will look very much like the 1950 schedule.

But, I could be wrong. And, we could have more than 45 people commuting out of Scranton. or, fewer.

Fewer is doubtful. Note the frequent Martz bus service between New York and Scranton.

I will agree with the notion that 1950 and nowadays are very different eras in terms of railroading. Back in 1950, the ICC issued their signaling edicts, which resulted in the vast majority of pax trains slowing down to 79 mph max anyway (main reason being, the edict stipulated that the railroads pay for signaling upgrades out of pocket). Before that, the rules did allow for faster top speeds of varnish—and the stretches of track between Pocono Summit and Gouldsboro and between Cresco and East Stroudsburg could allow for that, assuming that your Pocono-type steamers had a good head start and weren't struggling upgrade (going downgrade was of course easier)...what with E-units having the gearing for 90-mph top speeds (the rare ones had 120-mph gearing, but slower acceleration), those locos weren't going to achieve that.

Irish Chieftain wrote:and the stretches of track between Pocono Summit and Gouldsboro and between Cresco and East Stroudsburg could allow for that

OK, I'll accept that. But, the likely stations (same as the 1950 stations) still average about 9 miles apart, IIRC. That means the opportunity to make use of 79 or 110 mph trains is minimal. And, your pm acceleration is uphill.

On the Cut-Off, you'll have the same issue. Figure one new station near NJ 94 / Knowlton / Hainesburg, and stations at Blairstown and Greendell and the C-O is in three pieces

Anyone know just what the stations will be in PA? I mean know verifiably, not just wishful thinking. I've heard some pretty goofy speculation about a half dozen or more stops in PA, and that, IMO, ain't gonna happen.

Until a year or so ago, a friend of mine was very closely associated with this project and told me that stops on this side of The Delaware would be pared back to three; Scranton, either Mt. Pocono or Tobyhanna, and E. Stroudsburg. Put another way, no stations in Gouldsboro, Swiftwater, Pocono Manor, Cresco, Pocono Summit, etc. For the sake of expediency and economy, I can easily buy the three station idea. That same friend told me, back about five years ago, they were convinced that service was a go by 2006. So much so, that they'd already had preliminary discussions with Amtrak about being an interim "designated operator" until equipment could be ordered and delivered. I haven't seen this guy in a while, but would bet he's beyond disappointed by the way things have gone.

FWIW, restoration of pax was never seen by Scranton area proponents as a conveyence to haul NYC and NJ workers to and from work. Instead, it is part(or was a part) of long-range planning as an integral component of ongoing tourism efforts. But the way this thing is stalled, all of the numbers reached via research will likely be tossed in the can anyway.

There was a pretty detailed engineering summary posted on the old railroad.net. I think it showed five stations in Pennsy and three in NJ.

Somebody posted within the past few months that the environmental impact statement would likely require some minor changes to the draft engineering plan, mostly in the bridge and spill containment plans. There are a few grade crossings that would need re-working, too.

Nobody from NJ Transit has said a word about the plans in years, I haven't heard anything about the engineering firm which was poking around inside the Paulinskill viaduct and out on the bridge in mid-2004. Bad news could be a huge problem if either had to be rebuilt.

Thanks, Guru. There was supposed to be an egineering study done of the entire Cut-Off's ROW, and all of the real estate thirty feet either side of center. Whatever happened to that is a mystery. I can't find so much as a mention of any results of the study, if it was ever done. No news is usually good news, but in this case, I think the opposite is true.

DL&W has to this day a reputation for building structures that last forever. I can't help but think of the Tunkhannock Viaduct - still in daily use, and I'm near certain nothing structurally substantial has been done to that bridge since it was built. In fact, I'd have to wonder if even routine maintenance is performed on the viaduct, other than track maintenance up top.

Ten years ago I really thought this was going to happen; five years ago I was still a believer. Today? Well, a local columnist in the Scranton area recently wrote that it was his belief that no one over the age of forty-five was ever going to take a train to catch dinner and a Broadway show. Whaddya think?

Oh, I think it will happen...and within ten years, too. Economically and environmentally it virtually has to.

And, yes, the DL did build to last so the NJ Cut Off, the Hallstaed Cut Off, and all other improvements made 1909-1930 are still good to go. There has been some work on the viaducts at Nicholson and Martins Creek along with other concrete structures that have been needed along the line. But also look at the towers that have been totally neglected: the shells still stand!

And with all the re-bar hiding in that concrete, those towers will continue to stand for quite some time. As CR found out, its much cheaper to leave them be than demolish them.

Probably mentioned this before...but in Binghamton when they were removing the old freight house and tracks failure to break up the bumping posts with balls and hammers led them to drill holes and insert light charges of dynamite. The charges simply rocketed out leaving the block intact!