Lackawanna Cut-off

A few comments on this.

NS and CPR are not antagonistic rivals but partners. The NS and CPR are working closely together on the D&H. The D&H's physical plant is creating more friction than anything else capacity is very tight on this corridor.

Insofar as getting freight trains around the catenary the CNJ right away runs parallel through downtown Dover by reactivating this right of way and swinging onto it west of the Catenary you can than bypass Dover Station and build another track on the North Side of the line to Denville and head towards Boonton on the North side of the tracks. NJ Transit trains leave the Boonton Line at Mountain View and the right of way to route 80 is still there. Placing Railroad tracks in highway rights of way are not without precedent. Chicago has done it very successfully. According to Tabor the right of way of route 80 is wide enough to accomodate a single track. The cost of building a right of way to route freight via the cut-off makes it impractical but, the concept in of itself to run freight via Lackawanna is not. Total amount of new track that would have to be layed
is as follows:

1 1/2 miles through Dover and construction of one control point west of Dover Station.

2 miles of track along the northside of the existing NJT route to Denville.

13 miles of track or capacity upgrade on the NJT route between Denville and Mountain View.

Use of existing track Mountain View to End of Track Totawa.

4 miles new track along route 80 to NJT Mainline in Paterson. New control point in Paterson.

Control points cost 1 million dollars to make.

2 million to install the junctions.

Track costs 1 million per mile. $20 million dollars for track improvements

Total cost for the project probably in the $23 million dollar range I tacked on a million plus for studies. Not likely that New Jersey or NS and CP Rail would want to do this as this project is not cost effective. Things change with time, if the war in Iraq and the instability in Iraq was to engulf the entire middle east gas could go to $20 a gallon.. What is practical now and what is practical in the future can certainly change with time. If gas prices shot up to the magnitutes I just stated the cut-off project becomes an immediate go.

I agree freight on the cut-off now is impractical whether that continues to hold is something that remains to be seen with time. Non of the problems mentioned on routing freight via the cut-off are unsolvable they are currently impractical.

HSS

Insofar as getting freight trains around the catenary the CNJ right away runs parallel through downtown Dover by reactivating this right of way and swinging onto it west of the Catenary you can than bypass Dover Station and build another track on the North Side of the line to Denville and head towards Boonton on the North side of the tracks

The CNJ right of way is owned by the County of Morris and is slated to become a trail when (if ever) a connection to NJT's main is made just east of Dover. The CNJ line has many crossings, not well suited to be a bypass. The right of way of the original Boonton Line through Rockaway and down to Denville has been partially obliterated with housing and Route 80.

NJ Transit trains leave the Boonton Line at Mountain View and the right of way to route 80 is still there.

Through the many widening of Route 80 over the last 20 years there is no additional right of way available to construct any track. In many locations in that section the R-O-W is immediately outside the guide rail.

Total cost for the project probably in the $23 million dollar range I tacked on a million plus for studies.

Due to the problems noted, cost would be much, much higher than $23 million. Take a look again at the Cutoff project, cost estimated at $500 million. Say $100 million is for track upgrades in PA, that leaves $400 million for 26 miles of track in NJ. Comes out to $15 million per mile of new track on existing right of way. In the end NJT will be better off making additional upgrades to their existing physical plant. Re-install tracks where mainlines had been 2-3 lanes wide and increase parking lot capacity. If gas prices rise to astronomical levels, people will realize that living far away from work is not an option and suburban sprawl would halt almost overnight.

There is plenty of room from Port Morris east to add tracks...it used to be up to four tracks wide and in many places could be again if needed. Dover to Denville used to be 4 tracks cut back to three around WWII and then two in 1955. Denville east on the Boonton Line was four tracks plus running industiral tracks and sidings, so there is space there to Mt. View for additional trackage; to Great Notch, there is room for an additional track in many places, especially from Singac. But you can't go back over the old DL&W/RTI80 right of way anymore. On the Morristown side, surprisingly there is room for a third track in most places all the way to Millburn. IT would be tight but it really could be done if really needed...using the old traction right of way and other wide spots in the ROW, etc. I even believe there was more than two tracks between Landing Station and Wharton and Dover.

As for the CNJ in Dover. NIX. It is probably coming out. There is no industry or use of track in Dover itself and not until Rockaway. The concept of East Dover Jct. returning is as a jucntion with the "Rockaway Branch" lip smacking good as a nostalgic railfan and makes a lot of sense as a pragmatistic planner.

But somehow in DOver, three tracks have to be returned; the two track station has not worked out if only because traffic west of Dover was probably not thouight to be considerable enough to worry about. I am sure they are either pulling their hairs out or trying to figure out how to amend the situation.

Cut Off/Scranton traffic is part of the future. I think there will be more from Hackettstown-Washington within 10 to 15 years, and who knows what might have to be done for Sussex County.

The CNJ right of way is owned by the County of Morris and is slated to become a trail when (if ever) a connection to NJT's main is made just east of Dover.

Chris,

I remember you saying a few months back that the Route 46 work through Dover will allow enough room to keep the old alignment of the D&R in place through the town... Now your saying they(Morris County DOT) changed their minds again and they will need to establish another connection East of Dover??? So were back to the original plan of establishing a connection via the old DL&W Loop to connect with the present day D&R through Rockaway??

My thinking on the route 80 issue is building a double deck highway which would be funded with Federal Highway Trust fund money as a highway improvement and putting the railroad underneath. If the track project could be coupled with a highway improvement project than this gets out of the outlandish and becomes somewhat feasible.

In anycase I highlighted the obstacles of routing freight via the cutoff. In studying this there aren't any good alternatives. Turning North at Mountain View and connecting with the Susquehanna is a possiblilty put all that track would have to be relaid. The amount of track I am talking of constructing is 5 1/2 miles. It is 6 1/2 miles to the Susquehanna from Mountain View. The single track between Denville and Mountain View won't cut it whatever else you do that will have to be double track if freight is routed that way.

Insofar as the old CNJ right of way not being available that isn't a deal breaker but it complicates things exponentially because you are going to have to have a track outside of the catenary towards the North side of the right of way on the Station side of Dover Station. The coach yard is on the Southside so going on the South side is out you would have to cross under the wires. If they want to run freight than Dover Station would probably have to be closed or relocated. Hopefully NJ will have some forsight and preserve the tiny section of track that runs a block north of the station, I am not holding my breath.

blockline4180 wrote:
Chris,

I remember you saying a few months back that the Route 46 work through Dover will allow enough room to keep the old alignment of the D&R in place through the town... Now your saying they(Morris County DOT) changed their minds again and they will need to establish another connection East of Dover??? So were back to the original plan of establishing a connection via the old DL&W Loop to connect with the present day D&R through Rockaway??

Block,

The County wants to eventually install the new connection east of Dover. The State NJDOT is in charge of the Route 46 project and they are not entertaining that idea in conjunction with their project. It was the County's hope that the NJDOT would realize the savings in their project (one less bridge) and that money could be used to build the new connection. NJDOT said it is outside their scope on this project and proceeded with the design leaving the existing track in place. Another case of shortsighted thinking in NJDOT and no discussions between Divisions within NJDOT.

County's long term hope is that through a new connection all the CNJ crossings in downtown Dover can be eliminated, saving maintenance costs and the cost of crossing protection upgrades. I have not heard of any specific timeline or budget for the project, but it is something in the works. If the NJDOT agreed to fund it as part of the Route 46 project, we would have fast tracked it.

Chris

Your explanations, Chris, make sense based on the situations with politics, government agencies, etc. But HSSS! Holy SSSS T! A double deck highway for rail and road, or even road and road, would be a monstrosity both in sight, sites, and costs!!! Just from the point of view that it could not be expanded or strengthened without total rebuilding is one place to start. A certain town Mayor in North Jersey told me of his constituants suggestign a new monorail throught the median of Route 80 and that is certainly out of the question at this moment. From my point of view, strictly my opinion, is that if I am going to drive< I want to see; and if I am going to ride, I want to see. As pragmatic piling modes on modes might sound to some, the soundness of the mental condition of those who drive or ride has to be considered by allowing them to enjoy (or at least see) the scenery! You might just as well pack me in a pneumatic capsule, place the capsule in a tube, and blast me to Scranton. Or Chicago! Or Los Angles!

henry6 wrote:A certain town Mayor in North Jersey told me of his constituants suggestign a new monorail throught the median of Route 80 and that is certainly out of the question at this moment.

With a RUF, why not? http://www.ruf.dk/ A pair of RUF guideways will get two lanes of cars off the road, leaving more capacity for trucks.

RussNelson wrote:

henry6 wrote:A certain town Mayor in North Jersey told me of his constituants suggestign a new monorail throught the median of Route 80 and that is certainly out of the question at this moment.

With a RUF, why not? http://www.ruf.dk/ A pair of RUF guideways will get two lanes of cars off the road, leaving more capacity for trucks.

No, Russ. Monorail has worked only marginally in small, downtown, sort of rapid transit systems, otherwise it really is an untried, new technology, and thus, costly, very costly. Since the DL&W right of way exists, even in use as a railroad, it makes sense (and dollars) to utilize it to the fullest and bring it up to a state of the art railroad. 79MPH, welded rail, push pull, single track with adequate passing sidings, and signaling is relatively affordable for the applied needs of the services intended. In other words, unproven technologies like monorail, or even a super high speed railroad, are not applicable to a stop and go commuter-regional train as is proposed.

I agree with you that monorails haven't worked. This is a dual-mode technology. Think "cars on rails", and "trolleys on roads", and "off-line stations" not Seattle Monorail, or Disney Monorail.

In reviewing Henry's response towards the double decking of route 80 I did not mean double deck the whole highway on the Lackawanna right of way just 2 lanes which could be express lanes this was done on Highway 394 in Minneapolis they created a carpool bus lane and if you pay a fee you can use it as a single driver they use a smart pass. They have gates and signals so the traffic flow changes direction between morning and evening. It isn't all that unsightly if just 2 lanes are done this way. Capacity on route 80 would be the same or slightly increased and 1 lane at ground level gets taken out and the railroad gets 1 track put in.

Let me point out I wasn't the rocket scientist who decided to sever the Boonton Line in the first place since NJ DOT didn't have the brains and foresight to preserve at least one track on the Boonton Line let them pay the big bucks now to sort that mess out. They made this bed let em sleep in it.

The concept of double decking I80 does not make it on environmental levels because it would add more pollutants to the air. And as a visual eyesore, well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, not neccessarily the EZPASS holder. As for a rail line of any kind added to I80, topographically it just won't work; rails cannot do the grades. Plus, since the Cut Off ROW is still virtually intact, the cost of rebuilding a railroad on it would be far less than a new railroad or a new technology. And not just the ROW of I80 is the focus but also the total needs from parking cars and trucks to environmental issues to traffic congestion to allowing Jersyans admission to the roadway are issues which are being addressed.

And it wasn't NJT who "severed the Boonton Line" but rather the actions of Conrail, then owners of the railroad, who feared use of the line would imperil their endeavors to make a profitable railroad out of the old Penn Central wreckage.

So this may be a dumb question, but what is the status of restoring rails to the cut off.

I have read through endless posting on this site, all 80 some pages in the other forum, and all I want to know is what is happening.

Any help??

The short answer, ricebrianrice, is not much. There has been a little money appropriated, but the cutoff restoration project won't really get done until New Jersey and Pennsylvania both decide they want it, and push for Federal money. Right now it seems that PA wants it much more than NJ. NJ also has some NIMBY opposition.

Bottom line: We'll be lucky to see it by 2020.

Yes, things are slow, but the project is moving along. Here from tthe Pocono News this past week:


Poconos commuter rail link funding clears U.S. Senate committee

Proposed commuter route
Washington – Money to fund engineering work on the proposed Scranton to New
York City rail link has cleared a key U.S. Senate committee. The
Appropriations Committee approved including $2 million in a Fiscal 2008 funding bill.
The bill must clear the full senate and house.
Several Pennslvania projects are included in the bill, according to Sen.
Arlen Specter, a senior member of the Appropriations Committee.
The “Lackawanna Cutoffâ€