Fredrick Douglass Tunnel (Replacement of the Baltimore and Potomac B&P Tunnel)

Total mileage is x4 because 4 separate bores contemplated with the duck under bore probably more expensive.

SRich wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:39 pm

Bob Roberts wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:16 pm

TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:00 am Where was that 50 kilometer tunnel built? This tunnel is being built in a heavily developed urban environment with lots of obstacles in its way; was the 50 kilometer tunnel in Europe built in a similar geological environment? It doesn't excuse the high cost of the Frederick Douglass Tunnel but it offers useful context and explains one of the reasons why the cost is so high.

Yea, it is certainly easier to dig beneath a mountain than Baltimore. A better comparison of baseline costs might be the new tunnel built to allow HSR through service from Madrid Atocha to Chimartin -- this runs beneath an urban area not much different (but certainly more fragile) than central Baltimore (but I can't comment on soil / rock). My calculations are that this Madrid tunnel was built for $78.5 million USD per mile. The base tunnel mentioned above (Gotthard?) was $193.5 usd per mile (if my conversions were kosher). The Spanish (and the Swiss) know a thing or two about tunneling.

https://railway-news.com/new-tunnel-and ... in-madrid/

Gotthard Base Tunnel consist of 2 separate tunnels with an total length of 70 mile did cost € 8.9 billion or €128 million per mile. In 2011 €1 was $1.3924.
So the price per mile in $ 178 million.


But Amtrak is making a wrong choice in my opinion, that the new tunnels aren't prepared for double stack under catenary. Its only 2 feet or 60 centimeter more depth to dig and the double stack under wire is done.

That extra 2 feet translates into a considerably larger volume of spoil to be dug and removed from the tunnel, which would affect the design and construction of the tunnel walls and invert, which would increase costs even further. STrRedWolf indicated that the B&P Tunnel will be retained for freight use, and it can be rebuilt for double stack once its catenary is removed during the reconstruction of the tunnel.

TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:06 pm That extra 2 feet translates into a considerably larger volume of spoil to be dug and removed from the tunnel, which would affect the design and construction of the tunnel walls and invert, which would increase costs even further. STrRedWolf indicated that the B&P Tunnel will be retained for freight use, and it can be rebuilt for double stack once its catenary is removed during the reconstruction of the tunnel.

Lets also take a few other things into consideration. NS has to make sure it can clear double-stacks all the way down from Perryville to DC, with a possible lay-up in Bayview. What customers would have that freight? Just looking south of Baltimore along the NEC, we have Unilever... two power generating stations... and a short path on CSX track to get across a few rivers and back to NS territory to Lynchburg.

So likely it's hauling coal if it gets south of Bayview along the NEC. Is there any other way of getting it around Baltimore and DC? Manassas, going back up to Harrisburg.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:47 pm

TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:06 pm That extra 2 feet translates into a considerably larger volume of spoil to be dug and removed from the tunnel, which would affect the design and construction of the tunnel walls and invert, which would increase costs even further. STrRedWolf indicated that the B&P Tunnel will be retained for freight use, and it can be rebuilt for double stack once its catenary is removed during the reconstruction of the tunnel.

Lets also take a few other things into consideration. NS has to make sure it can clear double-stacks all the way down from Perryville to DC, with a possible lay-up in Bayview. What customers would have that freight? Just looking south of Baltimore along the NEC, we have Unilever... two power generating stations... and a short path on CSX track to get across a few rivers and back to NS territory to Lynchburg.

So likely it's hauling coal if it gets south of Bayview along the NEC. Is there any other way of getting it around Baltimore and DC? Manassas, going back up to Harrisburg.

Which generating stations? The popes creek branch is CSX, AND those plants no longer get Rail service. Unless there is a plan for superliners, it feels like uneeded future proofing.

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:19 pm Which generating stations? The popes creek branch is CSX, AND those plants no longer get Rail service. Unless there is a plan for superliners, it feels like uneeded future proofing.

Morgantown, Chalk Point, and Brandywine. Granted, CSX would have to invoke track rights to do it.

Still, the point being that there's freight on the NEC, and it's single stacked. Hell, even MARC 68 had to rescue some freight off the line in Odenton, and I have photos of that. I wouldn't discount NS itching to double-stack down the NEC, but it's got a lot of work to do with Amtrak and MARC to get it to a point where it's able to.

IT BEGINS!

https://media.amtrak.com/2023/03/amtrak ... gram-work/

Amtrak is ready to begin early construction activities as part of the B&P Tunnel Replacement Program. The first project is set to kick off on Friday, March 10, in the Halethorpe and West Baltimore areas. The work includes replacing aging wooden ties with new concrete ties, installing new rail and completing track drainage improvements.

“This initial project will directly reduce impacts during later construction phases and maximize the benefits of the new Frederick Douglass Tunnel with higher track speeds and greater system capacity,” said Amtrak Executive Vice President, Capital Delivery Laura Mason. “Our partners at the Federal Railroad Administration recognize the importance and urgency of this project and have provided $8 million in key funding to help us complete this critical infrastructure work. We are also grateful to Baltimore Mayor Brandon Scott and the state of Maryland for their partnership and support.”

This project is funded by a grant from the FY 2019 Federal-State Partnership for the State of Good Repair Program. These upgrades will enable high‐speed operations on all four tracks along this track segment.

amtrakhogger et al. previously stated that Track A used to be rated and signaled for 80mph operation. I’ll be curious to see if the overall speeds between BRIDGE and WINANS will be raised in connection with this or future enabling works for the Douglass Tunnel.

TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:10 pm amtrakhogger et al. previously stated that Track A used to be rated and signaled for 80mph operation. I’ll be curious to see if the overall speeds between BRIDGE and WINANS will be raised in connection with this or future enabling works for the Douglass Tunnel.

I don’t know if they were able to raise track A to 100 or if they’re going to upgrade all four past that. I haven’t heard from MARC reports if they will have Track A OOS between the two points.

EDIT 9:55PM: https://www.mta.maryland.gov/service-alerts/13896 ADA service down for northbound Halethorpe. Yep, track A is OOS.

Renderings of the south and north portals, as well as a rebuilt West Baltimore MARC station, were released May 3rd:

https://media.amtrak.com/2023/05/bp-tun ... enderings/



That actually looks nice.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 12:24 pm Renderings of the south and north portals, as well as a rebuilt West Baltimore MARC station, were released May 3rd:

https://media.amtrak.com/2023/05/bp-tun ... enderings/



That actually looks nice.

What is that MARC electric locomotive in the rendering? It's not one of the current electric fleet.

Looks like an F59PHI the render designer repainted, slapped a pantograph on, and threw some Superliners in tow for "double-deck" commuter cars like MARC has lol

Prelim track work complete:

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ ... ect--69503

Amtrak has completed early construction work in advance of building the new Frederick Douglass Tunnel in Baltimore, the railroad announced last week.

The long-awaited project began March 10 in Halethorpe and West Baltimore.

Early construction work took place on Track A from Winans to Bridge interlockings and included replacing aging wood ties with 13,500 concrete ties; installing 28,000 feet of rail; and completing track drainage improvements along a 5-mile section, said Amtrak Senior Public Relations Manager Beth Toll in an email.

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/comm ... Z2D5I5M6M/

Amtrak filed a complaint Thursday in U.S. District Court of Maryland against four property West Baltimore property owners that the rail provider claims stand in the way of replacing the aging Baltimore and Potomac Tunnel.

In filing the lawsuit, Amtrak cites eminent domain statutes as giving it the authority to acquire the properties essentially by force for the public good — in this case public transportation.

The area in question is where the south portal of the tunnel would be.

I thought the B&P Tunnels were falling apart, that's why they are being replaced, not just due to the bottleneck they cause.

I have to agree, why not future-proof them and add freight clearance?

gprimr1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 2:05 pm I thought the B&P Tunnels were falling apart, that's why they are being replaced, not just due to the bottleneck they cause.

I have to agree, why not future-proof them and add freight clearance?

How? They leak ground water and the occasional brick and constantly need repair work. Two sections already collapsed well before I was riding MARC regularly through the B&P. It's 30 MPH for a reason. They already studied that solution to death -- look at the FEIS! Look at the older studies!

It's only a matter of time before there's another collapse that has to be cleared.