FRA Rules Needed For Evacuating 'Hot' Trains?

Again on railroads what is safer, passengers contained on train, or let loose on right of way. its upto railroad to decide not the FRA.
every case is different, right of way changes every foot, you want FRA to make call about hanging high voltage wires near a train by issueing a blanket rule.
No its those that are in charge at site, and yes sometimes there will be casualties, just like a war or any other situation.
FRA won't be able to make a blanket rule cause there simply is no blanket situation.

DutchRailnut wrote:Again on railroads what is safer, passengers contained on train, or let loose on right of way. its upto railroad to decide not the FRA.
every case is different, right of way changes every foot, you want FRA to make call about hanging high voltage wires near a train by issueing a blanket rule.
No its those that are in charge at site, and yes sometimes there will be casualties, just like a war or any other situation.
FRA won't be able to make a blanket rule cause there simply is no blanket situation.

However unlike a war the railroad involved can be sued for said casualties....

And when that happens the railroad will deal with it

DutchRailnut wrote:So if a Cruise ship has AC failure do you suggest people to hit life boats.
If a plane has AC failure should someone open a window. The short is , you wait for instructions from those in charge, even on a train.

Mr Electricron I use to work steamships and spend many days with no sleep rebuilding electric panels behind a boiler at temperature of over 130 degrees.
Was it hard, betya, needed it to be done, you betya, Did I suffer, you betya.

I know cruise ships have open decks with shade where passengers can cool off if necessary during a complete loss of power. Besides, cruise ships have redundant power and air conditioning systems. If it gets hot in one area, it's usually cool in another.

I worked at a steam electric generating plant for over 50 years, where I got my heat illnesses. Plant management reinforced heat stress prevention measures, and was extremely concerned if anyone got ill from heat or cold. Apparently, Amtrak doesn't care about its workers, so why should we expect more for its passengers?

DutchRailnut wrote:And when that happens the railroad will deal with it

Dutch my friend this what the whole thread is about.

THEY DIDN'T DEAL WITH IT! and the lawyers will eat them alive....

no they won't, betya.

Something that needs to be remembered is that once the public--and their congressmen--get stirred up enough about something, a law gets passed which may well be unrealistic, unworkable, and counterproductive, and it is then too late for cooler heads to point out its defects--Congress is damned mad and ready to Do Something (never mind what, just Do Something). The three-hour deadline imposed on the airlines is a good--but only the most recent--example: the airlines said for years, "leave it to us, we're the experts--we'll get it fixed." They didn't, and when Congress got motivated enough to pass legislation, all the king's lobbyists and all the king's men couldn't stop the juggernaut. People need to be aware that when Congress gets stirred up about an issue it's like a boulder rolling and bouncing down a mountain: nobody knows where it's going to go. There is a very real risk that if the industry doesn't come up with a policy on its own, some day there will be a front-page kind of disaster that will dislodge the boulder. (Perhaps something could be done through APTA or some other industry organization--rather than resort to the FRA--to put something workable in place before the issue is taken out of the industry's hands?). I think Dutch is correct that any cure proposed by the FRA could be worse than the disease; the trouble is that a future disaster could well impose totally unrealistic requirements by law if the industry is not perceived to be taking action on its own.

And even if there were a FRA rule, what happens when a violation is reported ???
Amtrak paying the FRA with taxpayer money, now there is a counter productive exchange of greenbacks.
MNCR getting fined or NJT, great its taxpayer money flowing back to Federal government.
Congress can get upset, about what ?/? their lax progress on getting NEC out of trouble.
Their lack of funding for Amtrak and Commuter agencies ?? yup fines would help that

DutchRailnut wrote:Their lack of funding for Amtrak and Commuter agencies ?? yup fines would help that

No, fines will not help much. What will help? Firing irresponsible managers and crew members who continue to ignore the health and well-being of passengers. Keeping passengers in dangerous conditions until they faint has got to stop!

Golly, after someone faints, ambulances are called, and the entire rail corridor is closed to traffic anyways. Hello, why can't that be done before someone keels over?

I think it's clear from DRN's comments, the commuter railroads and Amtrak aren't going to want any part of this. Understandable in a way since mandatory evacuations would undoubtedly worsen delays. But it doesn't happen very often and I think the status quo is even worse.

I've been "trapped" aboard Conrail MU cars without A/C or ventilation back in the 70s (they were defective but pressed into service). Awaiting departure at GCT was hellish. Once on the road, with end doors tied open they were almost bearable.

But I can't even imagine what it's like being stuck for a couple hours.

Btw, I believe MARC confirmed there were ten people treated at the scene for heat-related problems and three others taken to hospitals, in the New Carrolton incident of a couple weeks ago. At least I'm quite certain MARC didn't deny it.

As to how to deal with the evacuations, my thought would be to summon local police, firefighters and EMS personnel. Given the situation, it might NOT be necessary to halt all other rail traffic. What do you do with the passengers once you get them off the train? I think local authorities could get them safely to another station.

Anyway, people are pretty resourceful. Nowadays when almost everyone has a cell phone, once you free them from the train I think many riders could take it from there.

I know I could. Just get me the heck off the train, that's all I ask.

Just like you said to be transported, no where on ticket does it state you ae entitled to lights, AC , Ventilation.
Go ahead, you got no legal basis as bystander.

electricron wrote:...and when they arrived forced a conductor on the train to do the right thing.

I can sympathize with the conductor. Imagine Dutch is your supervisor and he's telling you, "Do not let anyone off that train and tie up my railroad!" Unless you just won the lottery you're going to say, "Yessir Boss!"

Seriously, for the same reason I can understand crews not wanting to open doors to let some air in. It's too many doors for the usual two-person crew to control and surer than shucks you're going to get people exiting the train.

Unsupervised they really could get hurt, even killed by another train.

Tommy Meehan wrote:

electricron wrote:...and when they arrived forced a conductor on the train to do the right thing.

I can sympathize with the conductor. Imagine Dutch is your supervisor and he's telling you, "Do not let anyone off that train and tie up my railroad!" Unless you just won the lottery you're going to say, "Yessir Boss!"

Seriously, for the same reason I can understand crews not wanting to open doors. It's too many doors for the usual two-person crew to control and surer than shucks you're going to get people exiting the train.

Unsupervised they really could get hurt, even killed by another train.

That why I suggest keeping the supervisor in charge back in his air conditioned office just as responsible. For some passengers, the choice is sure death remaining aboard an over heated train or a possible death by accident. I'd take the possible death over a sure death anytime.

Moderator's Note:

Stop being so hot under the collar, or this thread will be toast.

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The bottom line is that a responsible organization needs to protect its patrons. In this case, even if MARC (NJ Transit, Metra, Amtrak, etc.) only guarantees transportation, they still need to make sure no one is injured due to their inaction. If MARC shirks that duty, they're liable to lawsuits, not to mention fines and possible rules regarding train evacuation.

electricron wrote:That why I suggest keeping the supervisor in charge back in his air conditioned office just as responsible. For some passengers, the choice is sure death remaining aboard an over heated train or a possible death by accident. I'd take the possible death over a sure death anytime.

Spare the dramatics, no one has dies, no one is long term in hospital. Infact no one needed to stay overnight.