Florida HSR Construction - Early Stages to Start Soon

High-speed rail construction to start in early 2011 | NewsChief.com

HAINES CITY - Initial construction on Florida's high-speed rail system is projected to begin in February or March, participants and visitors at a regional transportation meeting learned Friday. ...

The early-works project will include median work along the Interstate 4 corridor from Tampa to Orlando, Thibault said. Barriers must go up along the corridor to keep vehicle traffic away from the high-speed rail, he said, adding that sign replacement and utilities work are included in the project.

They are shooting at starting service in early 2015.

not an overly ambitious time frame is it , considering the chinese are aiming at opening 1000's of kilometres of new line per year .

David Benton wrote:not an overly ambitious time frame is it , considering the chinese are aiming at opening 1000's of kilometres of new line per year .

Of course, China has a vibrant economy and a massive population. There is a growing need for passenger rail in China, despite the shortcomings of a number of Chinese HSR projects.

In contrast, the line between Tampa and Orlando Airport is very nearly useless and will represent a crushing burden to the local taxpayers. HSR can only hurt Florida in the long term, as it will force higher taxes. It's worth remembering that Florida only prospered because of its status as a relative tax haven. Crist style politicians are only too eager to institute a state income tax in Florida, and once that happens, you'll see the same sort of permanent decline that's hit California.

I think i see the problem ...

Will this be subsidized when service starts?

It's worth remembering that Florida only prospered because of its status as a relative tax haven.

The climate has something to do with it. I like swimming in January, outdoors (something I can't do at home). But I wish there was a proper train service, instead of the horrible buses or the endless highways.

george matthews wrote:

It's worth remembering that Florida only prospered because of its status as a relative tax haven.

The climate has something to do with it. I like swimming in January, outdoors (something I can't do at home). But I wish there was a proper train service, instead of the horrible buses or the endless highways.

Generally, unless you're a person who always feels cold the climate of Florida is awful. When my mom and brother went down there they mentioned being tired of sweating by the time they got back. Maybe in January the weather is OK, but from what I understand 8 months of the year it's like a NYC summer - namely hot AND humid. I personally prefer seasons, and couldn't care less about swimming, whether in January or July. That said, I do agree Florida needs proper train service for those who do like the climate down there. This is especially relevant given the large senior population there, many of whom are no longer fit to drive an automobile ( we can thank AARP for the fact that we can't periodically retest drivers over a certain age ).

Florida is the semi-tropical part of the US. That's what attracts people there. Having lived in Nigeria I don't find it oppressive. But it's not the "low taxes" that are its main attraction. Indeed, those low taxes are what prevents it having proper transport services.

In contrast, the line between Tampa and Orlando Airport is very nearly useless and will represent a crushing burden to the local taxpayers. HSR can only hurt Florida in the long term, as it will force higher taxes. It's worth remembering that Florida only prospered because of its status as a relative tax haven. Crist style politicians are only too eager to institute a state income tax in Florida, and once that happens, you'll see the same sort of permanent decline that's hit California.

Paragraphs like that can be picked apart and shredded just for fun; if it had been posted at the Amtrak forum, it would still be getting ripped. I agree that the Tampa to KMCO alignment will be pretty useless if that's all that ever gets built, but the rest of the argument seems to presume that doing nothing (the no-build option) won't have considerable cost. The "no-builders" seem to think that the current transportation option are just fine and that they will continue to serve the traveling population just fine for decades to come. The truth is that FL is predicted to grow over the next decades and that there isn't enough money to maintain the current services and very little money to build new transportation infrastructure. So "no-build" will lead to more traffic jams, more pollution and less mobility.

george matthews wrote:Florida is the semi-tropical part of the US. That's what attracts people there. Having lived in Nigeria I don't find it oppressive. But it's not the "low taxes" that are its main attraction. Indeed, those low taxes are what prevents it having proper transport services.

Actually, the "low taxes" were one of the main drivers of development. Basically, the state of Florida has no state income tax, which is a major factor attracting wealthy homebuyers, especially when you consider that state and local income taxes are as high as 13% New York City - and that's not including Federal income tax. Property taxes (which you British call council taxes) have also been very low in Florida, in some cases, 10-20 times lower than in other states. Homeowners in Florida are also protected against losing their homes to creditors. This is precisely why so many wealthy people have Florida residences. Live in Florida and you don't pay state income tax, you pay very little in property taxes, and if you go broke, they can't take your mansion away!

Considering that the economy of Florida was largely dependent on the real estate market, it's clear that keeping taxes low is far more important than providing public transport.

Vincent wrote:The "no-builders" seem to think that the current transportation option are just fine and that they will continue to serve the traveling population just fine for decades to come. The truth is that FL is predicted to grow over the next decades and that there isn't enough money to maintain the current services and very little money to build new transportation infrastructure. So "no-build" will lead to more traffic jams, more pollution and less mobility.

It is highly doubtful that HSR can be justified on the basis of economic growth at a time when the population of Florida is actually shrinking for the first time in modern history. It's pretty clear that Florida needs to attract affluent home buyers for the real estate market to recover, and that the taxes neccessary to support Florida HSR would drive affluent taxpayers out of the state, leading to the same pattern of permanent decline that you see in so many high-tax states, such as California and New York.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:Actually, the "low taxes" were one of the main drivers of development. Basically, the state of Florida has no state income tax, which is a major factor attracting wealthy homebuyers, especially when you consider that state and local income taxes are as high as 13% New York City

Right, and as we all know, New York City is vastly underdeveloped and suffering from a severe population drain.

It's not a question of high taxes versus a general feeling that you're getting your money's worth for the taxes you pay. NYC works largely because most of those there feel they're getting at least something of value for the high taxes they're paying. Businesses in close proximity have a synergistic effect. A good public transit system allows the city to function without gridlock. Sure, things in NYC could and should be better given the taxes we pay, but apparently enough people feel they're at least getting enough of value to make it work staying.

On the other hand, Florida has next to nothing in terms of transportation infrastructure beyond roads. Higher taxes there without building something of tangible value would be a harder sell. Even with the low taxes, Florida has lost population. Fact is, once you get past the climate ( assuming hot, humid weather like we've had in NYC last week for 8 of 12 months is your cup of tea ), and a few attractions like Disneyland or Kennedy Space Center, Florida really has very little to offer compared to other places on the Eastern seaboard.

jtr1962 wrote:It's not a question of high taxes versus a general feeling that you're getting your money's worth for the taxes you pay. NYC works largely because most of those there feel they're getting at least something of value for the high taxes they're paying. Businesses in close proximity have a synergistic effect. A good public transit system allows the city to function without gridlock. Sure, things in NYC could and should be better given the taxes we pay, but apparently enough people feel they're at least getting enough of value to make it work staying.

On the other hand, Florida has next to nothing in terms of transportation infrastructure beyond roads. Higher taxes there without building something of tangible value would be a harder sell. Even with the low taxes, Florida has lost population. Fact is, once you get past the climate ( assuming hot, humid weather like we've had in NYC last week for 8 of 12 months is your cup of tea ), and a few attractions like Disneyland or Kennedy Space Center, Florida really has very little to offer compared to other places on the Eastern seaboard.

Well, they do have Tri Rail and are looking to start SunRail later this decade. I'd say those attractions would be enough to make anybody go to Florida.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:

David Benton wrote:not an overly ambitious time frame is it , considering the chinese are aiming at opening 1000's of kilometres of new line per year .

Of course, China has a vibrant economy and a massive population. There is a growing need for passenger rail in China, despite the shortcomings of a number of Chinese HSR projects.

In contrast, the line between Tampa and Orlando Airport is very nearly useless and will represent a crushing burden to the local taxpayers. HSR can only hurt Florida in the long term, as it will force higher taxes. It's worth remembering that Florida only prospered because of its status as a relative tax haven. Crist style politicians are only too eager to institute a state income tax in Florida, and once that happens, you'll see the same sort of permanent decline that's hit California.

Some of this I agree with, some not. I agree on the state income tax, but not the analogy; I'd compare it to Connecticut. I don't think you'll see an income tax in FL any time soon, but frankly, with the large base of retirees, who would they collect it from? The aforesaid retirees? There'd be a revolt. The question is whether this service will continue under the next governor.