Florida Gov. Rick Scott Rejects Federal High Speed Funds

The plans for the Tampa-Orlando route were highly flawed and only would have served to push back the cause for high speed rail in this country.

The ridiculously high ridership projects were almost entirely built around tourists, especially ones moving in and out of Walt Disney World. While The Walt Disney Company had agree to both a Walt Disney World and an International Drive station (originally Disney wanted only their stop in exchange for the use of their land), they also stated that they had no plans of discontinuing their free Disney's Magical Express service. For those who do not know, Disney's Magical Express is the free motor coach and luggage service provided to guests of Disney's hotels who fly in and out of Orlando International Airport. You are dropped off at your Disney hotel. You have no need to worry about your bags as they were picked up at the airport and brought to your hotel room by Disney. How many would pass that up in order to pay around $25/person (based on Acela Express and TGV services of similar distances) to take the train where they will then have to transfer to a Disney Transport bus to your resort? The cost of using the high speed rail to get out of Walt Disney World to Orlando (via the International Drive station) would also be limited to very few, as existing options like taxis are cheaper and more convenient than the once-planned train.

Mears also operates a Busch Gardens Shuttle. It is bus service from seven locations around Orlando to Busch Gardens Tampa, offered for $10/person for a round trip. High speed rail will not be able to compete with that price.

The state was promising marginal improvement over driving yourself, and for far too many getting to the train already involved a drive to I-4. Even at 15 mpg at $4.00/gallon, the drive will still only cost around $24 and be relatively as quick as the train.

There is no regularly scheduled airline service between Tampa and Orlando. If the demand to move between these cities existed it would be evident. There would be other projects to increase the capacity of the I-4 corridor through highway, rail and air; and yet this project is an all or nothing high speed project eyed because of its ease of construction due to I-4's massive right of way. There were also no direct connections to Amtrak, SunRail, or the rest of the planned/envisioned high speed rail lines.

NE2 wrote:

JasW wrote:Unfortunately, the two state senators brought this action as individuals, not on behalf of the legislature -- it would probably have some legs if the legislature were behind it.

I think that's because Senate President Haridopolos is against it.

While unrelated to the Florida HSR issue, and at best tangential to the discussion here, this Gail Collins column appraring in Saturday's Times, may provide readers with insight to this apparent FLHSR "grinch":

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/opini ... llins.html

Brief passage:

• We may be embarking on a new era in politics, in which candidates and officials are just as likely to be brought down by bad writing as adultery.............But first Haridopolos is going to have to get past some current political unpleasantness about the fact that, a few years back, he got a community college in his district to pay him $152,000 to write a book on Florida government.
  
  Which, The Associated Press pointed out recently, was supposed to become a textbook but wound up being a single 175-page, double-spaced manuscript stashed away in the Brevard Community College administration office.
  
  Furor ensued. Florida journalists pointed out that on a per-copy basis, Haridopolos made 61,000 times more than J.K. Rowling did for the Harry Potter series.

miamicanes wrote:One thing I have to say after looking at a bunch of stuff about China's new HSR lines... they obviously know something we don't about cheaply building aerial track with precast concrete.

Ummmm....it's called "slave labor".

> High speed rail will not be able to compete with that price.

Fuddrucker's can't compete with McDonalds on price, either, but succeeds nevertheless because they have better food and a more pleasant experience. For tourists in particular, rock-bottom price is less of a concern than experience and fun. I pity the hapless parent who tells his kids they have to ride the bus instead of the train because it's a few dollars cheaper. That parent will pay a hundredfold for his transgression, because the kids will never quit complaining about it. Forty years later, at some family Thanksgiving dinner, their kids will STILL bring up how their parents were too cheap to let them ride the train to Disney.

In any case, nobody ever intended for Tampa-Orlando to be the entire line forever. It only went for funding when it did because the cash was available and everything was ready to begin. FRE already got funding from the feds to finish up the Orlando-Miami plans, and the intent all along was to submit them for funding next year. If you look at FRE's timelines, they were planning to have Miami-Orlando completed and open for business sometime between 2016 and 2018.

Regardless of Tampa-Orlando's merit in a vacuum, when you add Orlando-Miami (and by extension, Tampa-Miami) into the equation, everything falls into place. Driving between Orlando and Miami is dreadful. Driving between Tampa and Miami is worse. Floridians wanting to travel between Tampa and Miami won't CARE whether driving is cheaper, or whether they'll have to rent a car in Tampa. We'll take the train just because it means we won't have to spend 4-6 hours in total misery either stuck in traffic or bored to death (the most visually-interesting thing along the Turnpike between Fort Pierce and Orlando are the powerline structures that look like an army of marching Space Invaders).

> Ummmm....it's called "slave labor".

Well, as fashionable as that meme might be, I suspect it's more a case of there being such staggering demand for factory-built track modules and deck pieces, sheer volume and economy of scale is making it affordable for them to use it in situations where it would be cost-prohibitive in the US. But it definitely seems like China routinely uses precast aerial structures in places that would unquestionably be done with retained earth in Florida.

On a side note, right now they're getting ready to start building noise abatement walls along the Turnpike in Broward County south of 595. It's too bad they couldn't have built the track on 15-20 foot retained earth structures instead of the noise walls. In exchange for a few 3-second rumbles per hour, the people on the other side would have had just about the greatest noise wall you can have sitting between them and the Turnpike.

miamicanes wrote:Forty years later, at some family Thanksgiving dinner, their kids will STILL bring up how their parents were too cheap to let them ride the train to Disney.

You make it sound like Disney's Magical Express is some broken down shuttle bus. It isn't. While a train and a shorter shuttle might be a memorable experience I doubt that 40 years later the bus ride will be remembered so negatively.

I read his comment as relating to Tampa and Miami residents going to Disney.

NE2 wrote:I read his comment as relating to Tampa and Miami residents going to Disney.

I have travelled in the Greyhound between Winterhaven and Fort Meyers (change at Orlando) in both directions. Every inch of the way I wished it was a train. It was horrible. And I have been in a car between Winterhaven and Clearwater. Not a nice experience.

miamicanes wrote:Well, as fashionable as that meme might be, I suspect it's more a case of there being such staggering demand for factory-built track modules and deck pieces, sheer volume and economy of scale is making it affordable for them to use it in situations where it would be cost-prohibitive in the US.

The reason it's "cost-prohibitive in the US" as compared to China is because Chinese workers are paid virtual slave wages - a 2005 wage survey showed a monthly net income of $533 for the construction industry. Now, admittedly it grows every year, but it's still extremely low in comparison to the wages earned by Americans in the construction industry (which also grow every year, for the most part). Call it a "meme" all you want, but the reason the Chinese can build the things that they can, taking advantage of economies of scale, is that the cost of labor is extremely low compared to the West.

David Benton wrote:New Zealand brought concrete ties off China . Somebody told me the price was $ 1 each , though i can't substaniate that .
I imagine if they were allowed that is exactly what china would do , bring in everyhting precast to save on US construction costs .

Just wait until all of that cheap substandard concrete starts to fail in a few years!

miamicanes wrote:Fuddrucker's can't compete with McDonalds on price, either, but succeeds nevertheless because they have better food and a more pleasant experience. For tourists in particular, rock-bottom price is less of a concern than experience and fun. I pity the hapless parent who tells his kids they have to ride the bus instead of the train because it's a few dollars cheaper. That parent will pay a hundredfold for his transgression, because the kids will never quit complaining about it. Forty years later, at some family Thanksgiving dinner, their kids will STILL bring up how their parents were too cheap to let them ride the train to Disney.

Disney has done a lot to encourage discounted offerings and that mentality has become a big part of why people go along with Disney's deal that only work when you stay on property and buy admission for all days of your visit. Disney has been increasing the "value" perception of their Florida operations, with the past several years of lodging being based around either their timeshares or their Value level hotels.

Disney's Magical Express is carried out by Mears operated motor coaches that feature large seats and video screens, with buses departed at very regular intervals The standard city style, mass transit buses with irregular service would have been waiting for people who opt to take the train. And we are not talking a few dollars cheaper. At around $25 per person for coach you are looking at nearly $100 for a family. Why not criticize all of those currently use system for not hiring a limo? It too is a unique and premium means of getting to Disney, offers a similar cost and offers the convenience of direct travel to your resort and help with the bags. There is a reason Disney's Magical Express was so controversial at its launch and challenged by the local companies offering transportation services, because the people you deem as being less concerned with price shifted over to the free motor coach service. High speed rail justifies its higher ticket costs with speed and the offering of premium services. At only 19 miles that distance is far too short to offer much, and it might not even be faster.

miamicanes wrote:In any case, nobody ever intended for Tampa-Orlando to be the entire line forever. It only went for funding when it did because the cash was available and everything was ready to begin. FRE already got funding from the feds to finish up the Orlando-Miami plans, and the intent all along was to submit them for funding next year. If you look at FRE's timelines, they were planning to have Miami-Orlando completed and open for business sometime between 2016 and 2018.

That though is not the reality of how government funded projects work. As soon as the Tampa-Orlando trains started their operations on Day 1, and the people of Florida were on the hook the extension would have been dead. The people of Florida, as a whole, have shown no interest in funding any segment of this project. The only way it all would have been built is if construction of the Miami expansion was started well before the initial segment began operations.

There was no "on the hook". USDOT point blank agreed to indemnify the State of Florida, its governmental sub-units, and its taxpayers, from EVER having to repay the funds or subsidize its operations if the private company failed to complete the job or maintain the required service levels. If anything, I'm surprised there wasn't outrage from other states over the fact that USDOT was basically willing to give away the farm in a moment of funding generosity that's almost unprecedented. USDOT said point blank that as long as Florida (or the municipalities) didn't hand over the money to the private company until it gave the final go-ahead, Florida and its taxpayers were 100% totally and completely off the hook.

If the private company walked away and Florida wanted to leave the tracks to rust, it would have been perfectly entitled to do so. It would be insane to do that, because even if the state DID have to spend a few million to keep it running, its value to the state's economy would almost certainly exceed the total costs, but most HSR opponents are so completely foaming-at-the-mouth in hate with rail, they literally go into convulsions at even the most strained hypothetical possibility that a single dollar of THEIR taxes might go towards its maintenance. Never mind the fact that Miami International Airport has an annual budget of $9 billion per year, and recovers less than $1 billion of that in actual revenue from operations, concessions, and rental car fees (the rest comes from the federal, state, and county governments). It also overlooks the fact that if push came to shove, a private company with 20-year operating horizon wouldn't shut it down and risk getting sued by the feds... it would just jack up fares, defer discretionary maintenance, and cover the trains with ads for Corona & Samsung and turn them into mobile billboards running along I-4.

In all likelihood, if the private company lost money, it would do everything it could to hide those losses and keep it a secret anyway, just to avoid hurting its market for trains elsewhere in the country. Remember, part of the reason for the companies' willingness to risk a loss in Florida is to use it as a marketing opportunity and showroom for other states.

THAT'S why Governor Scott's acts border upon criminal negligence towards the state he was elected to run. It was the allegorical equivalent of a divorced family feud where the Son (Florida) wanted a new toy (HSR), Mom (Scott) said 'no' and claimed it was due to concerns about frugality... but REALLY did it because her friends at the Teapot Social Club would disapprove of it, and she might not get elected to be Tea Queen if they found out. So, the Son asked Dad, and Dad bought it for him. Mom got mad, ripped it out of her crying son's hands, and threw it at Dad, loudly telling him to return it and apply the money to his credit card balance.

Also, don't forget that in the grand scheme of federal transportation funding, Florida is actually in a worse position by not having Tampa-Orlando when the day comes to try and get Orlando-Miami funded. On its own, Orlando-Miami will probably get a "good" or "very good" rating. With Tampa-Orlando already in place, Orlando-Miami would have automatically moved up at least one notch, and probably would have gotten an "excellent" rating. At the end of the day, Florida is going to end up building it anyway someday. The difference is, it's going to cost us a LOT more money thanks to our idiot governor and his act of political vandalism.

Part of the problem is that the Miami to Orlando Market doesn't have the demand at the two endpoints. There is again the tourist market - those day trippers to Disney. There is also the Cruise passengers who are looking for a little add on vacation. But from a business perspective it is not as strong. You don't have a lot of people working 3 days in Miami and 2 in Orlando. Plus, you then have competing air service between the two. Not to say that it wont work at all, but to get the Miami connection to work, you will need to add Tampa to that mix. You are probably going to find more people needing to go from Tampa to Miami than Orlando to Miami.

Continued funding from the federal government is entirely contingent on the US Department of Transportation continue to receive the needed funding. We are currently operating on a 2 week budget with 10 days lefts of funding. The Republicans at the federal level have not been widely supportive of rail, much less high speed rail. Loose the funding and either Florida picks up the slack or you lose the jobs as the trains stop running.

And what private company are you talking about? Is it a truly private company or it like many of the corporations that are operated, and subsidized, by governments?

Empty trains do not make a national example. They just become the poster child of the cause against future high speed rail projects. The demand for travel between Tampa and Orlando is very little. If high speed rail could create the demand for moving between two points then it should be built for even less somewhere in the Mid-West.

cloudship wrote:Part of the problem is that the Miami to Orlando Market doesn't have the demand at the two endpoints. There is again the tourist market - those day trippers to Disney. There is also the Cruise passengers who are looking for a little add on vacation. But from a business perspective it is not as strong. You don't have a lot of people working 3 days in Miami and 2 in Orlando. Plus, you then have competing air service between the two. Not to say that it wont work at all, but to get the Miami connection to work, you will need to add Tampa to that mix. You are probably going to find more people needing to go from Tampa to Miami than Orlando to Miami.

Using Acela Express as a base, the price of a one way ticket from Miami to Orlando would be about $100. Even if the family owned annual passes, that is an additional $800 for a family of four; versus the $135 in gas (again assuming 15mpg and $4.00/gallon). It might make a day trip possible, but the family could spend a night or two in one of Disney's Deluxe accommodations and still come out ahead. Some tourists might opt to make the trip for the fun of riding the train, but that is not going to be the case for the vast majority.

Every new rail project has people saying "there isn't the demand". As far as I am aware every new rail project, whether light or heavy, attracts more people than the estimates given beforehand. The only exception I can think of is Eurotunnel's freight forecasts.

So, be bold.

And now our Gov. (King?) may have to write a sizable check back to Uncle Sam. What a way to run a railroad (or ruin a state)!

http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/20 ... s-millions