Railroad Forums 

  • Debate: Should Reading Terminal/Viaduct have been kept?

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

 #104979  by MACTRAXX
 
Guys: what the Center City Commuter Connection created was a united system. I remember reading an article about it back in the 80s and I remember that a official mentioned that the tunnel was designed for commuter trains and not subway or light rail trains. This same official mentioned that without regional rail trains,the 4 suburban counties would not be part of SEPTA and when they came down for state funding,things would have been different if the City was running things by itself. Reading Terminal was a neat place - BUT - with the Center City tunnel you cannot argue with success. Good move,SEPTA! MACTRAXX

 #105084  by Wdobner
 
Irish Chieftain wrote:
RDGAndrew wrote: I really don't feel too bad about the lack of trains in the shed when I'm there
How about the lack of trains bound for Reading, Newtown, Bethlehem et al two floors down? Reading Terminal used to host trains going to New York, itself...now for trains bound for there, you have to ride three stops westwards, get off, and go two floors down to another operator...
The Pennsy always had the better ROW into NYC, the B&O/Reading/CNJ routing would only appeal to railfans these days. Once the railroads around here were unified, what organization would pass up a through-running 125mph electrified, 100% grade separated ROW which hits Trenton, Princeton and New Brunswick on it's way into NYC for one which terminates here in Philly, is non-electrified, non grade separated, and follows a somewhat roundabout way into a terminal across the Hudson from NYC? The only way the Reading and it's terminal could have survived would have been if the subsidized competition of the highways and airlines hadn't made their long distance passenger services unprofitable. However, we did blow billions on the highways and true to darwinian form when unification came the railroad which had devoted a greater capital budget to it's infrastructure came out with the remaining intercity trains. Reading Terminal was doomed from the moment Amtrak, SEPTA and Conrail were formed, it just took a few years to realize that. There can be no doubt that SEPTA is better off with Reading Terminal stricken from it's system and the Center City Tunnel replacing it, 'lost' diesel services or no. If SEPTA actually cared about Newtown they could have easily electrified it, and a Swampoodle or Ivy Ridge connection would allow trains from Quakertown or Reading into 30th St lower level. We have lost little operational capability that Reading Terminal gave us, and have theoretically gained far greater utilization of commuter equipment than the terminal would ever have allowed (it must be allowed that SEPTA's management of the CCT is somewhat lacking). Overall Market East and the CCT can only be ruled a success when weighed against what would have been the no-build option in the 1980s, it is perhaps the greatest success SEPTA or the City of Philadelphia have been party to in the past 50 years.

If you're so desperate to have some form of LD service to NYC from Center City just get Amtrak some cab cars for the Keystone Corridor and run the Keystones or the soon-to-be-departed Clockers into Suburban Station. SEPTA has the track space on the four terminal tracks at peak hours, they just have to send the Cynwyd branch somewhere useful on the Reading side of the CCT (like Fox Chase). And the current switching of the Cynwyd branch shows that SEPTA has few problems crossing a train over all four tracks outside Suburban, so there's really no excuse other than bureaucratic nonsense. There's little reason Amtrak cannot have a small pair of ticket windows and maybe 4 Quik Trak machines sitting in the concourse at Suburban. It'd take a bit of work at 30th St Station for SEPTA and Amtrak to convince their riders that the Keystones would be arriving on the upper level mixed in with R5s, R6s, R7s and R8s, but in the end it'd likely be a worthwhile use of time. The removal of the Clockers and a change in terminal for the Keystones would have the benefit of possibly allowing NJT or SEPTA greater access to 30th St Station Lower Level. This, coupled with an Ivy Ridge connector means that SEPTA would at least potentially have the means to bring peak hour trains to Quakertown and Reading to the edge of Center City, utilizing the former slots at 30th St LL's tracks 8, 9, and 10, where the Clockers, Keystones and ACL trains frequently turn.

 #105251  by Matthew Mitchell
 
Wdobner wrote:The Pennsy always had the better ROW into NYC, the B&O/Reading/CNJ routing would only appeal to railfans these days.
While the PRR is obviously better for through trains from Philadelphia, that doesn't mean there would be no market for a service on the Reading route. The number of 'supercommuters' from Pennsylvania and the West Trenton-Rocky Hill area into the NY metro area has grown significantly since the Crusader was eliminated.

 #105650  by Wdobner
 
Certainly SEPTA has maintained ridership on that route, the R3 West Trenton is certainly well (some might say over) utilized. Since Amtrak would be foolish to try to operate through service from Philadelphia to NYC on that route the onus is on NJT to provide service between NYC and West Trenton. There is no doubt that NJT (and probably CSX as well) would be hostile to the idea of SEPTA operating on the West Trenton line to Newark, as I understand was once done. If the demand for passenger traffic is there, then NJT should provide it, connecting with a SEPTA R3 train at West Trenton Station so passengers bound for NYC can transfer from the SEPTA train to the NJT train and vice versa. The line is long enough and the market small enough that it is not unreasonable for SEPTA and NJT to expect the NYC-bound riders riding from Bucks County or Philly-bound Mercer or Hunterdon counties to change trains at West Trenton. These riders would ride the same R3s that currently run right into the Center City Tunnel, so the issue of whether or not Reading Terminal is there and is utilized is moot.

The only line for which Reading Terminal actually makes sense for is the R8 Newtown. Even then it makes more sense to just electrify the remaining track to Newtown, less than 30 track miles and extend the R8 from Fox Chase rather than try to run diesels on the line. As I previously mentioned, diesel services can be run to Reading and Quakertown via an Ivy Ridge Connector and 30th St Lower Level, while NJT should provide service on the West Trenton line in NJ. As such there's absolutely no reason we could need Reading Terminal, we gained far more than we lost when Reading Terminal was stricken and we opened the Center City tunnel.

 #105668  by Irish Chieftain
 
Since Amtrak would be foolish to try to operate through service from Philadelphia to NYC on that route
Why? Amtrak expansion is suddenly "foolish"? If they got the same money as a DB or SNCF by geographical proportion, they could operate trains just about anywhere they wish, and get riders, because the trains would be fast enough to be competitive...

And to dispute your earlier claim, the former CNJ/RDG route is just about as direct as the former PRR route. Briefly, the B&O had direct Royal Blue service into Penn Station via that very route, albeit changing onto the LVRR at Bound Brook instead of the CNJ.
Matthew Mitchell wrote:While the PRR is obviously better for through trains from Philadelphia, that doesn't mean there would be no market for a service on the Reading route. The number of 'supercommuters' from Pennsylvania and the West Trenton-Rocky Hill area into the NY metro area has grown significantly since the Crusader was eliminated.
Note the hyperbole (justified) over "THE tunnel", especially on the Access To The Region's Core site...the sooner that tunnel gets built, the faster there would be a push for direct Raritan Valley/West Trenton line service into NYP and/or the proposed 34th Street Station. One can bet that those "supercommuters" would be demanding direct rail service in either direction on the WTL...and that in turn would attract other travelers between New York and Philadelphia.

 #106053  by jfrey40535
 
A question about the viaduct itself. I was on Callowhill last night and noticed a tarp strung up around the side and partly underneath the viaduct. Anyone know if work is being done to it?

There is an organization that is trying to convert it to a park. I don't know if its them or if its falling apart and its being covered up. Someone also erected a hideous looking chain link fence on both sides of it, I guess its common knowledge that people go up there now. I know people have been up there, I'm just wondering if it is ok to go up without getting harrassed or arrested.