Danbury Branch - History, Electrification, Studies

Mr. Cain, allow one who "been there done that", the Danbury electrification was quite alive during my years at SKS (56-61). It was always "sport" to sit on the Fireman side of "Freedom Train" 141 and watch the engine change.

The worst sacrilege was to see EP-3 #311 dunked in Pat's Orange and White with, to me, the hideous block lettering NH.

Yes, I realize the design was "groundbreaking " and is still in use today with MNR and CDOT liveries. But the New Haven had no need for such, when soap and water was much more needed.

I can remember first reading about a proposal to re-wire the Danbury line in the old Passenger Train Journal, I think it was, clear back in 1979 or ’80. Since then, the proposal has gone through a back and forth on again, off again, on again, off again existence.

A study done by CDot a few years ago kicked the can down the road again. Their findings under the “final draft” of 2016 were, basically, “not at this time”. They thus moved electrification of the line to a “long-term” proposal. So that, essentially, moved it back into the “off-again” category.

But now the idea seems to be gathering steam once more which might move it back into the “on again” stage.
Here is the latest article on the subject from earlier this year:

https://www.ctinsider.com/news/article/ ... 753959.php

So, there is some interest once again in making electrification an “on-again” proposal. Furthermore with the feds dolling out huge amounts of money for rail transit projects don’t hurt the electrification cause at all.

Another article in the Electricity Today Magazine Forum cited a Mr. Rodney Chabot who had been a commuter on the Danbury line back when it was sill electrified. Mr. Chabot’s experience sounds like it was a bit different from Mr. Curtain’s.

To quote from that article here,

Rodney Chabot, a New Canaan resident who grew up riding the Danbury branch when it was electrified, is still outraged by the decision to remove the catenary.
"It was working beautiful," said Chabot, a former chairman of the Connecticut Rail Commuter Council. "The diesels have been a failure."

So, if the world holds out and we don’t all get blown up after all, this long sought after plan might just finally come to fruition.

Since I’m not a commuter myself and no longer even live in Connecticut, I guess it does not affect me that much. But I remember the line in the late 1950s and always thought it a terrible shame that they did this.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 8:14 am
The worst sacrilege was to see EP-3 #311 dunked in Pat's Orange and White with, to me, the hideous block lettering NH.

Ah, but Gil ~ ! That is strictly a matter of personal taste. For me, personally, I have always liked and admired Pat's paint scheme. Actually, if I remember right, Pat hired an artist known as Herbert Matter who came up with a number of different paint schemes and it was actually Pat's wife who picked the one out that stuck.

But it's personal taste, that's all. In my own personal, honest and humble opinion, I wonder sometimes if Pat's paint scheme might've been the one and only think he got right while he was at the helm of the New Haven.

However, I respect and honor your point of view 100%.

By the way, there is a book entitled The New Haven Railroad in the McGinnis Era. That book is a really super fun read~! If you don't have it, you might be able to still find a copy of it somewhere. There are a lot of old, beautiful pictures in there,

Regards,

I HAD it, Mr. Cain.

ISBN: 0965904067, 9780965904063

However, last year, I donated my entire 100 book railroad library to a not-for-profit.

I've also met, the author, Marc Frattasio.

I also knew Rodney Chabot.

fredmcain wrote: The FL-9s didn't turn out as well as expected or, at least not to me. They were a beautiful-looking locomotive but unfortunately it became impractical to completely shut the prime mover engine down once they entered third rail territory. The tunnels and much of the lower portions of Grand Central station would fill up with acrid smoke that I personally witnessed. Can the power they're using today be completely shut down in third rail territory?

This instantly reminded me of my dad trying to convince me at the age of 11 or 12 back in the early 2000s that the Genesis dual modes had their diesel engines still running in GCT and I said otherwise. His rationale for his claim was that they were so inexplicably LOUD I just thought they were a loud locomotive by nature! And they sure don’t hold a candle sound wise to a GP40-3H

In all honestly I and many others don’t buy the whole “electrification was better” argument. It was only done in the first place to move the engine change from Stamford to Danbury to prevent delays on the main line. The service levels back then were even at their best paltry compared to now and even if current levels were doubled diesels would still work better unless the towns along the line were okay with all the trees along the ROW being severely trimmed back to avoid the inevitable too-easy-to-happen rush hour power outrage brought on by high winds and/or severe thunderstorms.

The politicos in CT keep bringing it up to keep the “study money train” chugging along. And to… you know… look good at face value in the eyes of their gullible constituents.

In this article that had also been quoted above,:

https://ctmirror.org/2022/04/10/why-the ... ry-branch/

,it was stated that “CDOT’s rail chief Rich Andreski says ‘we are serious this time’”.

Not they’re not. They are, in my opinion, definitely not “serious”. Because in the very next sentence they began discussing the use of battery powered locomotives that would draw juice off the New Haven’s mainline catenary then run on battery power to Danbury obviating the necessity of stringing new catenary on the branch.

In my own personal, honest and humble opinion, that does not sound to me like they are truly “serious”.

Some of the big, Class 1 freight roads are experimenting with battery powered locomotives but they are still in the developmental stage. It is also not clear if a battery powered locomotive would have the same power and acceleration as even a Diesel electric, never mind engines or MU cars that would draw directly off of overhead catenary.

Like I’ve stated earlier, I would love to see the Branch rewired again but I’m skeptical if that’s gonna happen in lifetime – if at all.

Mr. McCain, I'm "not exactly" a fan of EV. I've driven a rental (out of HPN) Tesla Model Y once in this life during November'22. Sure, the acceleration was sport and then, for 75 miles, who need worry about recharging when Hertz said " just bring 'er back; we'll worry about recharging" - and no radio. I had to do without my WQXR.

But a battery powered locomotive, yikes. Yes, I know such is part of Amtrak’s new Airo equipment order, but when in the past forty years has Amtrak made an equipment order other than a fiasco? If Metro-North tries same, will the result be any different?

Gil,

The one real advantage I can see in battery powered locomotives on the Danbury branch and, please, forgive me if I'm getting a bit too facetious, but the REAL advantage would be that it might make the climate change alarmists happy.

Regards,

CTDOT is getting the same Charger variant that MNRR Amtrak LIRR et al are getting. CT's will mirror MNRR's with the shoe under-running (LIRR is over-running).

They also just ordered non-powered coaches.

Electrifying the branch would require they order more M-8's. The issue confronting CTDOT is that the ridership is low;. When MNRR electrified the Harlem above North White Plains, ridership jumped. Is that ridership there in that corridor? Could there be? I'm not sure.

If anything, if they were going to do experimental locomotives, I'd expect Hydrogen. Personally, I'd like to see Stadler DMU's, and the extension of service to New Milford and Southeast first.

Likely again off topic, but three cheers for the Stadler DMU. I've ridden them overseas (DB & OBB) and "they do the job".

If there were first, a restoration of HRR's, at best, FRA Class 1 Danbury-New Milford and MNR passenger service using somebody's DMU's, where would the "change at..." be?

And finally, out my way, METRA simply placed the wrong order at the wrong time for 200 Alstom bi-level locomotive hauled Coaches. The order was in good faith when placed during Fourth Quarter '19, but half the ridership - at least here in the "Land of the Burlingtons" - is gone post-COVID, and is never coming back. DMU's like the Stadler (they have a plant in Salt Lake City) would be a rational choice to handle the drastically reduced ridership.

It’s been mentioned at least twice on this thread that the ONLY reason the New Haven Railroad ever electrified the Danbury Branch at all was in order to eliminate a steam locomotive facility at Stamford.

However, I’m not completely convinced that was the one and only reason why they did this. There is no question that it was indeed a major consideration but there might’ve been another reason why they electrified the line.

Remember, that up until around 1914, the New Haven had long-term plans and intentions to electrify much of the system. J.P. Morgan was a huge fan of electrification.

Unfortunately, the financial crisis that hit the New Haven in 1914 following Morgan’s death forced the road to postpone those plans.

However, once the New Haven recovered somewhat, electrification plans were revived on an on-again, off-again basis especially during the 1920s. Then the Great Depression took care of that. I recall reading somewhere once where plans to expand the electrification were still simmering somewhat on the back burner as late as the 1940s.

After the Second World War ended, we all know what happened to the New Haven’s finances. It took Amtrak and American taxpayers to finally extend the electrification to Boston.

However, if we now go back to the 1920s, I suspect that the electrification of the Danbury line in 1925 was entirely consistent with long-term plans to expand the electrification of the railroad.

You know, back in the 1980s, there were very similar arguments made against extending the electrification to Boston. Many opponents cited the same thing: NOT NECESSARY. Ronald Reagan was so vehemently opposed to it that he effectively killed the project after some of the engineering work was already done. In the end, he failed to kill it but just caused a major delay.

Fast forward to today. Would we be better off had the line to Boston never been electrified? It wasn’t really necessary, but it was perhaps advantageous and desirable.

So it is with the Danbury electrification. Is it necessary? NO. Is it desirable and advantageous? Perhaps. I guess in the end it’s all how you look at it.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:27 am DMU's like the Stadler (they have a plant in Salt Lake City) would be a rational choice to handle the drastically reduced ridership.

Gil,

Yes, off topic indeed but you've made a valid point. What you advocate doing is actually a sort of revival of the Budd RDC concept with new, state-of-the-art technology.

The Budd RDC's were actually very successful and performed well. So well, in fact, that I think there are actually a few still running.

fredmcain wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:09 am

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:27 am DMU's like the Stadler (they have a plant in Salt Lake City) would be a rational choice to handle the drastically reduced ridership.

Gil,

Yes, off topic indeed but you've made a valid point. What you advocate doing is actually a sort of revival of the Budd RDC concept with new, state-of-the-art technology.

The Budd RDC's were actually very successful and performed well. So well, in fact, that I think there are actually a few still running.

There are a number still running, in Pennsylvania, Maine, and other states.

I mentioned above about the ctmirror article that quoted Rich Andreski stating that "this time we're serious" about electrification of the Danbury line. Well, guess what? I tried to contact CDOT directly and learned that Andreski left the department in 2022 - probably shortly after the interview with ctmirror.

So, he probably knew his days were numbered there and thought it would be O.K. to say about anything.

So, I found the name of the current administrator, a guy named Jakonovich or something. Guess what? His e-mail is bouncing.

It almost seems to me like people who work in government don't appear to be accountable to anybody.

And now Biden wants to spend over $16 BILLION on northeast corridor improvements. If that goes through, that will mean the end of those classic New Haven Railroad movable bridges. That will make me very sad but I guess nothing lasts forever.

Here are the contact details for the CTDOT Rail Administrator

Rich Jankovich, Rail Administrator
Office of Rail
[email protected]
(203) 497-3347

From this site
https://www.phone.ct.gov/