Cumberland and Pennsylvania Railroad

Hello,
I just recently got a copy of Carsten's Publications book, "Cumberland and Pennsylvania Railroad", and I have found it, and the C&P, to be quite interesting. Did anyone on here work on the C&P, or does anyone have any interesting stories to tell about the C&P? I would really like to learn about just how the present configuration of the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad came to be, with the crossover from the original Western Maryland to the C&P at #9. This is a funny coincidence with the West Virginia Central Railroad out of Elkins, West Virginia, as that railroad, with it's original Western Maryland diesels, travels up the old Western Maryland as far as Cheat River Junction where it continues on on the old Greenbrier, Cheat, and Elk Railroad to its destination at High Falls. I thought it was a neat coincidence how they both traveled from the WM through on old junction, which is now the mainline of the successive railroad. Anyway, back to the C&P?? Thanks so much!!
Keith

I guess the reason the scenic operation takes the former C&P at Number Nine is because the Frostburg layout is suitable for a tourist terminal, that is, a station building for the restaurant/gift shop and if I remember correctly, a turntable.

That is correct, the C&P depot is pretty much right there in Frostburg, and the turntable is there, although it is not original. Originally there were only track where the turntable is now which led into the tunnel a few yards away. The turntable at Frostburg is a Western Maryland original, shipped in from the Elkins yard.

Related to the C&P discussion; the C&P purchased a Brill Gas Electric Car in 1929 (page 40 of the Carstens book has details). It was numbered 101.

C&P passenger service ended in 1942. At some point (exact date escapes me at the moment), the Brill was acquired by the New York Susquehanna & Western RR for use in commuter service in Northern New Jersey. The NYS&W refurbished the car and numbered it 3002. The Brill Car, along with several ACF cars, was used until around 1950 when the NYS&W purchased 4 new Budd RDC cars.

(For more details on the NYS&W fleet of self propelled cars, pick up the relatively new "History of the New York, Susquehanna & Western Railroad" by Robert Mohowski - excellent book).

Anyway, the NYS&W disposed of this car by 1950, not sure where it ended up, perhaps Cuba?

Fast forward to 1990. The NYS&W roundhouse complex in Little Ferry NJ was being abandoned prior to demolition (it is now the site of a CSX Intermodal yard). I was scavenging the site (with permission) and came across a grease-soaked soft cover book on a workbench in the macine shop. In red pen, the number "3002" was written. Brushing away the dust, the cover of the book says:

Instruction Book
for Care and Operation of
Gas-electric Cars

Automotive Car Division
J.G. Brill Company
Philadelphia USA

Inside there is a series typewritten pages describing the various components of the car (including the ACF-Hall Scott 6 Cylinder engine).

There is also a wiring diagram inside from JG Brill dated 1-28-29, Order Number 22742, Cumberland & Pennsylvania RR Co.

Somehow this manual survived for about 40 years after the car had departed the scene, don't ask me how!

On even newer USGS topo maps, it shows a narrow gauge rr just South of the Borden Tunnel in Allegany County, MD (Frostburg quadrangle) that runs up from Allegany Jct (Zihlman) to Wolf Gap. Anyone know the use/history of this line?

Also a line out of Mt. Savage, MD up to Sampson Rock and from Wellersburg, PA to Bald Knob, MD, any info?

dkgrubb wrote:That is correct, the C&P depot is pretty much right there in Frostburg, and the turntable is there, although it is not original. Originally there were only track where the turntable is now which led into the tunnel a few yards away. The turntable at Frostburg is a Western Maryland original, shipped in from the Elkins yard.

In noticed elsewhere on the net a missing bridge is being replaced to permit trains to once again call at the ex-WM depot in Elkins. Google maps (or was it Terraserver?) shows the foundations of the roundhouse and the turntable pit.

Seeing this revival, any chance Elkins might want its turtable back?

* JB *
w.f.p.t. | w.l.s.

Agent at Clicquot wrote:any chance Elkins might want its turtable back?

I don't see that happening, at least as long as the Western Maryland Scenic continues to operate, and if they are the actual owner. Can someone say for sure if the turntable is actually owned by the Western Maryland Scenic?

CarterB wrote:On even newer USGS topo maps, it shows a narrow gauge rr just South of the Borden Tunnel in Allegany County, MD (Frostburg quadrangle) that runs up from Allegany Jct (Zihlman) to Wolf Gap. Anyone know the use/history of this line?

Also a line out of Mt. Savage, MD up to Sampson Rock and from Wellersburg, PA to Bald Knob, MD, any info?

Carter, the first two you named were probably tramroads running to clay pits on the ridge NW of Mount Savage and Zihlman, where there were brickworks. One runs under the bike trail south of Borden, and the other jumps over the trail between Borden and the state line.
Both are quite steep, and remarkably straight in places. I think I calculated that one had an 8% grade; it's not clear if they were worked by Shays or stationary engines; the straight line makes me suspect the latter. Of course, it would be loads downhill. The Zihlman alignment is amazingly durable, at least on maps; wish I knew when it was last used. I've seen both from the bike trail, but have not had a chance to get out there on the ground to explore futher.
The Mt. Savage/Sampson Rock grade crosses the bike trail at a sharp angle and with a sharp grade; the bridge must have been substantial, but only the abutments remain. The Zihlman grade passes under the trail on an underpass that is hard to see from the bike trail.
Give me a little more info on the Wellersbug/Bald Knob thing; have you looked on Historical Maps?
Malley
Malley

Carter, I found your other line, at Wellersburg. It had two legs, one running south to connect with the C&P at Barrelville. The grade followed PA160/MD47, usually being west of it.
The other branch ran to Bald Knob, going cross country on a NE/SW heading, and remaining south of T311. Be advised I'm getting the route number from the Gazeteer, and Twp numbers are often incorrect.
There is one other odd part to this rr, or whatever it was-logger? North of Wellersburg, and north of T311, there was a very straight alignment running NW, right against the western slope of Little Allegheny Mountain. Again, due to steepness and straightness, I suspect stationary engines.
That any help?
Malley

Malley,

Thanks for the excellent info.

The maps, as you said, were/are quite "durable" showing these lines well into the 20th and even some the 21st century.

I wondered if the line up to Bald Knob might have been some kind of early "tourist" operation?

Thanks,

Carter

Carter-
What makes you suspect a turista operation, particularly on the Bald Knob side of the operation? Is there a scenic outlook or other attraction at Bald Knob? Be interesting if such were the case.
I will agree that that side of the rr seems more substantial than just a logging line, but it may be the clay pit thing again; loads to Wellersburg, then south to Barrelville.
Have you seen it on Historical Maps?
I have another post here about the Cumberland & Pa, and the Georges Creek & Cumberland.
If you haven't seen it, please take a look,
Thnx,
Malley

Malley,

The Bald Knob spur shows up on the topo map of 1908:

http://historical.maptech.com/getImage. ... g&state=MD

I've "Googled" bald knob, and found this esoteric info:

CUMBERLAND BASIN COAL COMPANY.
The Cumberland Basin Coal Company, whose mines are situated
at Barrelville, about eight miles from Cumberland, along the
Cumberland & Pennsylvania Railroad, suspended operations June,
1904. The only time their mines were working was upon the
occasion of my first visit, May 5, 1904. This company worked what is known as the "Parker" or "Clarion" seam, situated about
thirty feet above the horizon of the "Blubaugh" or "Brookville"
coal vein, but unlike that coal, is generally uniform in character.
Very few men worked in the mine when I inspected it, and since
then it has been idle. A small locomotive owned by the company,
operates over a branch line, which serves also to ship the coal from
the Georges Creek Bald Knob Coal Company's mine, by a "switchback,"
over the Cumberland & Pennsylvania Railroad. The Cmxiberland
Basin Company's mine has two openings, known as "Stafford"
and "McGlone."
GEORGES CREEK BALD KNOB COAL COMPANY.
Jerry Wiland, Supt. and Mine Foreman.
This operation is situated about two miles north of Mt. Savage,
and is what was known as the Brailer property. It is the most
northerly outcropping of the "Big Vein" and not as free from
impurities as this famous coal further south.
There are three openings here, and the development work is
among the best in the region. A tramroad about two miles in
length is used to convey the coal in the mine cars to the head of the
plane, by means of a locomotive. Thence the cars are lowered
down the ilane, about half a mile to the dump, which
is across the State line in Pennsylvania, and there shipment
is made via the "switchback" on the Wellersburg branch,
to the Cumberland & Pennsylvania Railroad, back in the State."

Source:http://www.frostburg.edu/minemapping/an ... 4_1905.pdf

This document is a wealth of info on other mines in the area, just open the pdf and search "tramroad" and "locomotive".

Carter

Found another reference: Look/search under "Cumberland and Pennsylvania"

http://books.google.com/books?id=TKgRAA ... 2-PA595,M1

Malley,

Looking at the current road and topo maps, it would appear that the ROW going up Bald Knob to the SW of Bald Knob Rd. (at about Bear Camp Rd.) would be quite visible as there is/was a large cut going up the knob. From there to Wellersberg, doesn't seem that much may be visible, altho there may be bridge abutments where it crossed the creek south of W. Mineral St about half mile West of Wellersberg.

Carter-
I printed the map, and have it in front of me. Not sure where the cut might be, tho' I'll check a modern topo program in a minute. The whole Bald Knob operation looks to me like they didn't grade any more than they had to. Two spots HAD to be incline operations; the one before the switchback on the Bald Knob branch, and the one north of Wellersburg; the section running WSW looks mighty steep as well.
The run to Barrelville is mostly classic riverbottom railroading.
Skimmed the citation and found the Lonaconing Mine name; IIRC, we saw a drainage tunnel with their name on it SW of LaVale, with orange water exiting by the (bunch of) gallon.
I'm hoping to get down there within a week or so, before the vegetation gets going. I'll try to take a look.
Where are you located, Carter?
Malley