CONRAIL car's appearance on Delaware Ave, yesterday 6/30/04

queenlnr8 wrote:To swing this thing back on to something SEPTA related...

Let's think of ways that SEPTA could tie this route in to an existing trolly line for, potential, tourist functions or regular commuter lines.

Well, ones idea- take the Riverline across the bridge- use the Ben Franklin Bridge views as a tourist attraction, then run along Camden Waterfront,
Philly Waterfront and Independance Park.




An alternate idea,
A loop using Delaware Avenue, Packer Ave, the BSL local north to Walnut, then PATCO line back to Ben Franklin Bridge, exit from the sevice portal and back to Delaware Avenue.

To start the service asap, string wires on Delaware Ave, grab some Route 100 trolley cars and add on the pantographs, then get them running on the route.

Hal

Putting light rail on Delaware Avenue would kill freight rail service. Thanks for that go to the FRA. True pity, since the alignment configuration is just like most modern LRT.

Alternately, is there a connection to the Reading lines from the Delaware Avenue/Columbus Boulevard tracks? If so, then you could have an alternate diesel regional rail route right there (although this would not be terribly conducive to local stopping, but that could be included, not to mention pricing outside of regional-rail fare structure for trips within Philly). Of course, that would be presuming that people traveling from places like Reading and Quakertown/ABE would use a train headed for the Delaware waterfront in Philly...(certainly would be a quicker way to get to Penn's Landing)

At one time, the tracks connected to the Reading's Port Richmond Branch. Would it be feasible to have a train that ran from 2nd & Spring Garden to Wayne Junction (or Fern Rock)? SEPTA would never go for that.

What about severing the tracks on Del. Ave at South Street? No freight trains go above there. Then you could run light rail without the FRA problem.

I suppose the trolleys in the '80's got around that by only running on Sundays when there were no freight trains out.

jfrey40535 wrote:At one time, the tracks connected to the Reading's Port Richmond Branch. Would it be feasible to have a train that ran from 2nd & Spring Garden to Wayne Junction (or Fern Rock)? SEPTA would never go for that.

What about severing the tracks on Del. Ave at South Street? No freight trains go above there. Then you could run light rail without the FRA problem.

I suppose the trolleys in the '80's got around that by only running on Sundays when there were no freight trains out.

FRA COMPLIANT
Or right now, like the Riverline in NJ - you CAN share the same tracks, you CAN'T have trolleys and trains running side by side.

Since it seems like it's the railroad running alread FRA non-compliant, running without crossing signals, running a railroad on the highway,
it might be easier to restore trolleys when the a railroad running like a trolley with share-the-road-with-cars-and-stop-at-stoplights-service.
You wouldn't kill service, you just have to provide time slots where one or the other service is using the rails.

Another alternative would be to buy up the old PATH FRA compliant subway cars from the NYC area and rebuilt them to run on catenary power.


BSL TIE IN
Perhaps with a little ingeuenuity it would be possible to use the least used SOUTHERN local only portion of the BSL in subway surface mode-
You'd build portals at the stadiums and around Walnut Locust where the BSL local tracks end.

Getting from BSL at Walnut/Locust wouldn't be that bad, eastbound trolleys could use either the exiting "Chestnut Street Transitway" or use Locust Street and save capital costs by tying into the Locust Street Subway power. Westbound could be Walnut or Spruce.

ROUTE 15
The other nearby system is the route 15 Trolley. You'd have to re-gauge the remaining track, put up wires, but there should be trackage in place to connect them.



There are the tracks on 2nd Street. I think they're trolley rather than 'Beltway' or freight spur because of the notch, but I'm sure someone is familiar to clarify that.


Hal

FRA COMPLIANT
Or right now, like the Riverline in NJ - you CAN share the same tracks, you CAN'T have trolleys and trains running side by side

I take this as an acknowledgement that the River Line DLRVs are of course not FRA compliant. The sharing of tracks is time-regulated.

Since it seems like it's the railroad running alread FRA non-compliant, running without crossing signals, running a railroad on the highway

What do you mean "non-compliant"? The rails thereof are part of the FRA network, and the rail vehicles are FRA-approved. Just because the freight trains may be grandfathered equipment doesn't automatically suspend current FRA running rules.

Another alternative would be to buy up the old PATH FRA compliant subway cars from the NYC area and rebuilt them to run on catenary power

Those are also currently grandfathered, so another rebuild to bring them up to current FRA spec would be required. And since they are built to the dimensions of the IRT, the platforms required for them would reach too far into the track for freight cars to clear. Connecticut DOT is divesting their fleet of M2 cars, but they also would need a rebuild and probably would be better suited for SEPTA regional rail anyway (but you would need to also install steps and trapdoors for low platforms).

And after that, there's the question of catenary clearance for whatever freight cars are currently using the line.

There are the tracks on 2nd Street. I think they're trolley rather than 'Beltway' or freight spur because of the notch, but I'm sure someone is familiar to clarify that

You can clarify it for yourself with a tape measure—if the gauge of those tracks is wider than 4 feet 8½ inches, then they are trolley tracks, otherwise they are freight tracks.

I'm jumping in a li'l late here, but just back from vacation and wanna add a quick note on the original inquiry: The trackage in question (Phila Belt Line) is still very much used for freight, as you've witnessed. A few line customers remain (including a chem plant near the ShopRite on Snyder), as well as offloading from piers to boxcars. As for right of way, the trains either do stop at the lights as you've observed, or they use the CP caboose along with flares and a flagman at the major Xings. Much, tho not all, activity is at night or in late afternoon.


Here's an example...

More street running on Delaware Ave...

Another...2 CSX units on the Avenue...

A night move...

And my personal favorite...

One other note...the trackage farther north (Walnut to Market) sees no freight. As someone mentioned, there were trolley excursions for awhile...and B.Levin's E8s made an appearance a coupla years back, picking up conventioneers from the Hyatt.

Hal wrote: FRA COMPLIANT
Or right now, like the Riverline in NJ - you CAN share the same tracks, you CAN'T have trolleys and trains running side by side.

Light rail and freight can share the same rail only if they're time separated.

The NJT River LINE DOES run side-by-side with Conrail Shared assets at the same time from Pavonia Yard in Camden north to Hatch interlocking in Pennsauken.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/159 ... 1078xzeAUo

http://community.webshots.com/photo/159 ... 1115ZWEhRh

These photos were taken from the platform of the River LINE 36th Street station, Pennsauken. Conrail, CSX, and NS all operate freight trains between Pavvonia Yard and the Delair Bridge while the River LINE operates.

This photo was taken from the walkway that connects the south end of the 36th Street station platform with the parking lot.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/118 ... 5590glzrYe

tsk-tsk Bob---did you get the required permits from NJT or did you break their "law"...lol...see NJT railfan permit forum, although I'm sure we're all aware it exists!

OK, jfrey40535, I'm bad!

Regarding the first two photos, though, I wonder whether NJT has a policy against photographing non-NJT subjects from NJT property.

I have boldly photographed Amtrak and SEPTA trains from the platform at NJT-owned Trenton Station, while I somewhat more furtively photograph NJT trains.

I suspect that NJT cops wouldn't recognize a difference between photographing Amtrak/SEPTA vs. NJT trains.

Probablly not Bob, I'm sure they consider it their domain. I was teasing by the way so don't take it seriously.

I have to check back on the NJT thread, but I thought maybe it was time we organized a mass railfan photo day or something at a NJT station, even a low profile one like Cherry Hill as they did in NYC to protest the MTA boycott.