Brightline (All Aboard Florida) Orlando - Miami FL FEC fka Virgin Rail

Arlington wrote:

electricron wrote: And there's no doubt in my mind that running 40 miles of brand new tracks, in the Beeline Expressway right-of-way or not, through a watershed area (i.e. swamp) is going to need a full FEIS performed if any kind of Federal funds are involved.

What if no federal funds are involved?

Maybe the DE *extension* was a bad example. More like Pan Am and the MBTA double-tracking, signal upgrades and laying CWR in Massachusetts, and Perhaps more like CSX's Capital Corridor and NS's Crescent Corridor. A lot of that work seems to have been implemented pretty fast because while it was fed $, it was on the RR's ROW.

One would assume that if no Federal agencies are involved in route acquisition and construction (including a loan by the Federal government or an agency thereof), no Federal EIS will be required. I'll assume that the Florida Department of Environmental Protection has less stringent guidelines. Perhaps the FEC plans to get private and State loans for right-of-way acquisition - perhaps Florida's Turnpike Enterprise or FDOT want to give the FEC a loan? - and reserve Federal loans for equipment and existing right-of-way as Mr. Arlington supposes.

http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/ ... 59014.aspx

Looks like they've already done a lot of the leg work, although I don't know if they've acquired the necessary equipment for the Orlando leg (notwithstanding the ROW issue), or for the existing ROW.

It appears Florida East Coast Industries (FECI) will be moving forward with its “All Aboard Florida” project, which will establish a passenger rail system between Miami, Orlando and Tampa. Since FECI is not relying on government funds for the project and is prepared to invest upwards of $1 billion more than it already has in the private deal, Floridians expect to see the three urban areas connected by an efficient, low-cost means of travel rather than have the plan fall through the cracks. FECI has already acquired much of the needed material and real estate and expects to have the train up and running as soon as 2014. For more on this continue reading the following article from JDSupra.

...

FECI is already on the move. It's already bought in excess of 200 miles of necessary track and between now and 2014, FECI will be boosting those tracks to tip top shape while also getting track in place to complete its plan to include Orlando in its route.

FECI is going to be putting an estimated $ 1 billion toward getting the All Aboard Florida rail system up and running by 2014, at least for the Miami-Orlando section. They're estimating it will take as long on their rails to go between Miami and Orlando as it currently takes Amtrak passengers to travel between New York City and Washington, D.C.

Noting their plan is to go all the way to Tampa, is it safe to assume it will be in direct competition with Amtrak over CSX utilizing yet to be granted trackage rights? Heck, what about going all the way to Jacksonville and Tallahassee to serve the State Capitol?

Jeff Smith wrote:http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/ ... 59014.aspx
Looks like they've already done a lot of the leg work, although I don't know if they've acquired the necessary equipment for the Orlando leg (notwithstanding the ROW issue), or for the existing ROW.

Don't confuse a "junk" bond investor web site for real news. FEC wouldn't have released their own press release unless they had already done some leg work. While I would love to see private enterprise back into daily, scheduled intercity passenger rail business, I'll believe it when I see it.

The new Ski Train had usable passenger cars for the train but never carried a single passenger, at least one step further along than "All Aboard Florida" train. It would surely help me believing in all this if I read FEC was buying or leasing passenger railcars. Are there any available in sufficient numbers FEC could use for a quick startup two to three years in the future?

One would think at startup they would need approximately a dozen railcars in their train sheds. It takes years to build new railcars. Could they lease some of the 33 single level Mafersa coaches from CDOT? Or lease some of the 25 restored Comets from UTA? Or lease some of the 95 Horizons from Amtrak? Are any of these railcars available for FEC to lease? I'm not that worried about leasing used diesel locomotives with HEP, plenty of them are available from MPI for lease.

electricron wrote: Don't confuse a "junk" bond investor web site for real news. FEC wouldn't have released their own press release unless they had already done some leg work. While I would love to see private enterprise back into daily, scheduled intercity passenger rail business, I'll believe it when I see it.

I agree, I'll believe it when I see it.

However, that doesn't mean I don't take news for what it's worth, i.e. the source. Really? And certainly the information contained within the link and quote is newsworthy.

Jeff Smith wrote:

electricron wrote: Don't confuse a "junk" bond investor web site for real news. FEC wouldn't have released their own press release unless they had already done some leg work. While I would love to see private enterprise back into daily, scheduled intercity passenger rail business, I'll believe it when I see it.

I agree, I'll believe it when I see it.

However, that doesn't mean I don't take news for what it's worth, i.e. the source. Really? And certainly the information contained within the link and quote is newsworthy.

I'll agree it's newsworthy, but nothing "new" was contained from the FEC press release last week.

electricron wrote:I'll agree it's newsworthy, but nothing "new" was contained from the FEC press release last week.

Exactly my thought. The article doesn't know much about FECI, because it seems to assume that the railroad just purchased the mainline from Miami to Cocoa. It also doesn't say anything about actual investors in the project - otherwise it just parrots the All Aboard Florida site.

As I mentioned in a prior post, there are a lot of spare commuter railcars in this country that could be used for >79 mph operation. The FEC ought not to have much of a problem garnering those, and powering its trains either with passenger equipment or with freight locomotives + HEP cars. Also, we haven't brought up this possibility, but it's possible they'll simply ask Amtrak to be a contract operator.

Worth noting that running anything through a wetland is going to incur substantial environmental clearances due to the wetland laws (which are important).

Noting their plan is to go all the way to Tampa, is it safe to assume it will be in direct competition with Amtrak over CSX utilizing yet to be granted trackage rights?

I'm pretty sure they're planning to build in the ROW that was originally set aside for HSR. They've already said any new tracks west of Cocoa will be grade-separated and up to HSR standards, so there's really no sane reason why FDOT would refuse to let them use it. For all intents and purposes, FEC picked up a copy of FDOT's "incremental high(er)-speed passenger rail vision plan" from around 2003, dusted it off, and announced it was going to build it almost exactly as described. Remember, every study that FDOT has done has projected that intermediate-speed passenger rail between south and central Florida (let alone Jacksonville) would make a real profit. The thing that's always killed it was the cost of buying ROW from CSX or FEC -- a problem that FEC obviously doesn't have.

I don't even think CSX is going to fight about it very much. CSX obviously stands to lose some intermodal business to competition from FEC, but I see FEC's market as being Florida itself. CSX is slow and lumbering, but they own tracks covering half the US. FEC could conceivably run tracks down I-75 to Fort Myers or Naples (for passenger & intermodal freight), and maybe even Tallahassee, but at the end of the day, its tracks basically end at Jacksonville, and the only market where FEC might be someday where CSX has no presence at all is Southwest Florida (a market it once had, then abandoned). CSX collects bulk goods IN Florida, and carries them OUT of Florida. FEC will be the railroad that takes goods delivered INTO Florida and distributes them around our increasingly-urban state. In this sense, FEC is more like a European railroad than a traditional American railroad. They exist only in Florida, but they have the potential to completely own the market for passenger and intermodal rail traffic in this state someday... in effect, finishing the job Henry Flagler started more than a century ago.

Talgo could probably produce cars within 3 years .

David Benton wrote:Talgo could probably produce cars within 3 years .

Just about any railcar builder could. There's no "Build in America" requirements when you aren't using federal funds. Talgo could even assemble them in Spain and ship them to Florida. Almost all the Japanese manufacturers assembling railcars in America could build the trains in Japan and ship them to Florida too. But any foreign built railcars will still need to meet FRA compliance to share tracks with FEC freight trains, so they'll be limited to building trains designed for America.

I still don't see how FEC can startup passenger rail services in 2 years with brand new railcars, no matter where they are built. That's why we've had this discussion over which railcars are available for leasing.

Dem new Talgo Cab cars....Dey be UUUUUUUUGLY, Mon!

electricron wrote:

David Benton wrote:Talgo could probably produce cars within 3 years .

Just about any railcar builder could. There's no "Build in America" requirements when you aren't using federal funds. Talgo could even assemble them in Spain and ship them to Florida. Almost all the Japanese manufacturers assembling railcars in America could build the trains in Japan and ship them to Florida too. But any foreign built railcars will still need to meet FRA compliance to share tracks with FEC freight trains, so they'll be limited to building trains designed for America.

I still don't see how FEC can startup passenger rail services in 2 years with brand new railcars, no matter where they are built. That's why we've had this discussion over which railcars are available for leasing.

um , which is it , you say just about any railcar builder could , then you say you cant see how Fec can startup with brand new railcars within 2 years ???

David Benton wrote:

electricron wrote:

David Benton wrote:Talgo could probably produce cars within 3 years .

Just about any railcar builder could. There's no "Build in America" requirements when you aren't using federal funds. Talgo could even assemble them in Spain and ship them to Florida. Almost all the Japanese manufacturers assembling railcars in America could build the trains in Japan and ship them to Florida too. But any foreign built railcars will still need to meet FRA compliance to share tracks with FEC freight trains, so they'll be limited to building trains designed for America.

I still don't see how FEC can startup passenger rail services in 2 years with brand new railcars, no matter where they are built. That's why we've had this discussion over which railcars are available for leasing.

um , which is it , you say just about any railcar builder could , then you say you cant see how Fec can startup with brand new railcars within 2 years ???

It's the getting it within two years that's the problem, especially since it would basically need to be an all new product rather than off the shelf thanks to FRA regulations. Most likely they'll lease until joining CA and Midwest joint order.

miamicanes wrote:I'm pretty sure they're planning to build in the ROW that was originally set aside for HSR. They've already said any new tracks west of Cocoa will be grade-separated and up to HSR standards, so there's really no sane reason why FDOT would refuse to let them use it.

Where was right-of-way set aside? There doesn't seem to be enough room at the new toll booth east of Dallas Boulevard, either in the median or between the cash toll lanes and the right-of-way fence.