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  • Biodiesel, Ethanol, and other alternative fuels...

  • General discussion about locomotives, rolling stock, and equipment
General discussion about locomotives, rolling stock, and equipment

Moderator: John_Perkowski

 #272482  by pennsy
 
Hi Byte,

You got that one right. The exhaust from these cars and trucks smells just like what was being cooked in them. So, from McDonald's the exhaust would definitely smell like French Fries. If the oil had been dedicated to Chicken McNuggets, that is the smell you would get from the exhaust. I guess that would be a great ad for McDonalds and might make the people following these vehicles drive right into the fast food place and fill their stomachs. You have heard of word of mouth advertising, this would be smell of the nose advertising. Somewhat reminiscent of the fellas that drive by the Bread Bakeries and the smells of the fresh breads drives them crazy.

 #272532  by Aji-tater
 
Next thing you'll have the animal rights wackos complaining about the smell of fried chicken in the air. You've heard of second-hand smoke, these folks will complain they're eating meat by proxy, LOL!

Maybe they should get used Dunkin Donuts oil for high crime areas....might draw more cops! (Seriously I have the utmost respect for the job our law enforcement folks do, but just could not resist that one).

 #272538  by octr202
 
Aji-tater wrote:Next thing you'll have the animal rights wackos complaining about the smell of fried chicken in the air. You've heard of second-hand smoke, these folks will complain they're eating meat by proxy, LOL!

Maybe they should get used Dunkin Donuts oil for high crime areas....might draw more cops! (Seriously I have the utmost respect for the job our law enforcement folks do, but just could not resist that one).
Either that or the railroad will get sued for subconsciously motivating people to eat too much fast food, and making them obese...

Maybe we should have a crime-prevention program of just building more Dunkin's in high crime areas? (sorry, couldn't resist either)...
 #284682  by steamal
 
:-D Hey, what about oil from someplace such as Captain D's or Long John Silver's? Oil that's been used for cooking shrimp, anyway. :wink: (Disclaimer: I am not trying to advertise either one of those establishments.)

 #291990  by Aji-tater
 
Someone started another thread on this same topic, then someone else said they could not find this one. Since there is obvious interest in the topic, this will send it to the top.

The price of oil will fluctuate but there is obviously some incentive to perfect or at least improve the technology for alternative fuels. At some point, either as oil costs more or the price of bio comes down, it will make economic sense for more widespread usage. I doubt it will get the radical environmentalists happy but it might get the railroads some positive publicity.

 #292162  by David Benton
 
I have a customer who's job is to filter the oil used in frying vats etc . He also replaces the oil when required . he uses the used oil in his diesel van directly , after filtering it . but only in the summer .
I have also heard that running a litre or 2 of clean vegie oil through your tank is good for the seals etc in the fuel pump , and fuel injectors , as well as cleaning out the engine abit . havent been game to try it yet .
 #310615  by Mimbrogno
 
Most deisels can run on a variety of fuels, including cooking oils and other grades of petrolium close to the properties of diesel oil, like kerosene. However, most engines also require some adjustment or modification to make them run smoothly on these fuels. These adjustments range anywhere from just tweaking the timing to increasing the compression ratio or changing the air intake volume. Not only are these adjustments annoying chores that take time away from operating, they can also be affected by changes in the operating enviorement, like airpressure and humidity. All of these factors limit the flexibly in using alternative fuels.

There is one engine however, which can operate on virtually any combustable fluid that will flow through the pipes, without any adjustments or modifications needed to the engine itself. Unfortunatly, this engine has been out of production for many decades, and the few remaning examples are both rare and very valuable. The Baldwin 600 series diesel locomotive powerplants, namely the 606, 606NA, 608NA, 606SC, 608SC, 606A, and 608A engines, have been tested and proven in their ability to run on many different fuels ranging from heavy bunker C oil to liquified natural gas. These fuels also include crude and 40w lube oil, petrolium jelly, kerosene, propane, butane, and ethenal. Other fuels which are believed to be usable but I do not have any test data for are light alcohols (Gin, Vodka, etc.), corn syrup, and hydrogen. All of these fuels can be used in without any adjustment or modification of any kind aside from that which is made automatically by the governer to compensate for the different BTW ratings. As an aside, you might be interested to know that when running on Bunker C oil, kerosene, propane or natural gas, the engine creates around 10% greater horse power than on diesel fuel alone. You might also like to know that I have heard rumers (as yet uncredited ones) the Russians used to run their 30 VO engine locomotives on Vodka in times of fuel shortages.

Sadly, this engine has been out of production for decades, and it's fundimental technology has not been picked up by other builders. It will take a while for builders today to adapt their engines with fancy computer controlled injector/combustion systems and complicated intake and exhaust components before they can burn the same vairety of fuels as Baldwin engines have been using for the past 75 years.

Matthew Imbrogno

 #310738  by Lirr168
 
Very informative post, Matt. Thanks for sharing that with us!

 #310772  by BR&P
 
Matt, what is different about the Baldwin engines that makes this possible?

 #310949  by Mimbrogno
 
Well, the main difference between the Baldwin engine and those of other builders is really in the whole approach to engine design. The De La Vergne Co., who was bought by Baldwin in 1931 and who's engines were the predicesor of the BLW 600, developed an engine that ran with a high combustion temperature and a constant ignition charactoristic with a very large cylinder. Fuel is continuously injected over the length of the power stroke, but it is injected smoothly at a constant rate with the same pressure from the begining to the end of injection. With this style of ignition the fuel burns like a fire, it doesn't explode like a bomb. Because of that you can use virtually anything the burns, it doesn't have to have the "explosive" charactoristics of diesel fuel to keep the engine going. The large cylinder and low but very broad RPM range means the Baldwin 600 can absorbe a large amount of excess energy, which occurs when the engine is accelorated. With this reserve capacity, fuels of widely different volitilities and energys can be used without damaging the engine. Infact a safety margine of about 11% over the stated rated capacity is built into the engine. Another factor which allows for such a variety of fuels is the very large fuel injector equipment, made possible by the size of the massive cylinders. The injectors themselves have 9 nozzle ports, spraying fuel in a 160 degree vertical and 360 degree horizontal arc. In effect the whole cylinder is filled with atomized fuel from the very beginning of ignition, resulting in a smooth and uniformly steady burn. The nozzle ports are quite a bit larger than those found on other comparative engines, which accounts for the ease in which the BLW 600 can burn the tar-like Bunker "C" oil. I also know for a fact that this engine can run on Petrolium Jelly (aka Vasoline), as I have seen the inside of the fuel filters of the engine. The original filters, which where in place when we started the engine for the first time ourselves, were coated inside and out with a solid mass of jelled diesel fuel. Inspite of this, we had no trouble in starting the engine after it had sit idle for 8 years.


EMDs and other two strokes however are forced to use a more explosive ignition style, which dumps a large amount of fuel in the beginning of the power stroke, which tapers off sharply. They have to use a fuel with enough force to kick the piston around the whole stroke after burning for just a fraction of it. This means the engine is subjected to a severe strain at the beginning and loses pressure thereafter. You don't get to use the effect of that very high pressure over the whole stroke; infact you hardly have any benifit of it because the high pressure of the beginning is making up for the lack of pressure at the end. Fuels other than diesel can be very dangerous in these engines. If they have too much power, the pressure can become much too great upon ignition, resulting the the cylinder head being shot right off the engine. If they burn to hot, the piston and valves can be burned, even melted. If they burn too cold or do not generate enough power, the piston might not have enough pressure to carry it around the full stroke. Then if you have fuels which are too thick, they won't flow properly through the smaller injection equipment EMD uses. If they are too thin, too much fuel might be injected before the govener can compensate. Worse yet, the fuel might vaporize or fail to carry away the excess temperature of the injector nozzles, as EMD uses excess fuel to cool the injectors.


Then you have Alcos, which are four strokes like Baldwins, but have a much lower combustin temperature and much smaller cylinders and run from two to 6 times the RPMs. The reason why they smoke so much is partly because they have an ignition temperature that is too low for their performance profile. They don't have a reserve of extra pressure or temperature capacity to absorbe the amount of fuel injected in all cases, especially when accelorating. This is compounded by the speed at which the engine operates. The fuel can't burn completely before the cycle ends, which means it's blown out the exhaust in all that smoke. What this all adds up to is you cannot substitue a fuel that has any less energy than Diesel fuel, or the engine can stall before enough fuel is burn to push the piston all the way around. You are also restricted in fuels which have more power than diesel oil. With the engine's limited capacity to absorbe the energy of the fuel, the engine would have to be accelorated very slowly to avoid putting too much energy in the engine, resulting in more pressure than the engine can handle, and ending in the cylinder head flying off to land half a mile away. The engine would become far too sensitive for practical use.

Now that doesn't mean that you can't run an EMD or Alco on fuels such as LNG or Bunker "C" oil. It just means you can't use them in their original configuration. Adjustments will need to be made in timing and compression ratios, resulting in the need of slightly different parts. Vegetable oil and Bio-diesel, provided the mix approximates the performance of regular diesel oil, could be used without significant modification.

When it comes down to it, the main difference between a Baldwin and an EMD or ALCO or GE or another similar engine is the fundimental paradim on which the engine is designed. Baldwin used a large, slow and efficient engine, while the others focused more on slightly smaller designs which run quite a bit faster, and have less of a margin.

BLW 600 cylinder dimensions:
Diameter: 12 3/4"
Stroke: 15 1/2"
Total Cylinder Displacement: 1978cu inches
RPM: 125 - 625

Average estimate of comparative engines (EMD, ALCO, etc..)
Diameter: between 9" - 9 3/4"
Stroke Between 9" and 10"
Total Cylinder Displacement: Between 570cu inches - 650cu inches
RPM: 300 - 1000

Now there are some newer engines in developmentment and early use such as the GEVO, which are starting to approximate the performance of the BLW 600. Someday they may become as flexible as the BLW 600, but I find it dissapointing to see that it has taken almost 75 years for the current industry to catch up to the basic design principles that Baldwin had known until they left the locomotive market in 1956. You may be wondering, "If the technology is so great, why didn't other companys pick it up after Baldwin ceased production?" Well the answer is that although they didn't make locomotives anymore, BLH has still a corperate entity until 1970, and they held all the patent rights and design specifics up until the very end. Anyone trying to copy the designs would have to pay royalties to them. Also, by the 1950s, other builder's had become so entrenched in engines of their own development, they were not interested in even the slightest suggestion that they should stray from them. They felt that they had too much invested in their own products to make any significant fundemental changes.

Matthew Imbrogno
Mechanical vollenteer, Arizona Railway Museum.
-One of the few today who gets to experiance the wonders of a Baldwin diesel, and I'll be happy to share them wth you! :-D

 #310975  by alchemist
 
Now, that's what I like about this forum. Where else are you going to read a dissertation like that? Thanks, Matthew! :-)
 #311029  by Alcoman
 
steamal wrote::-D Hey, what about oil from someplace such as Captain D's or Long John Silver's? Oil that's been used for cooking shrimp, anyway. :wink: (Disclaimer: I am not trying to advertise either one of those establishments.)
That smells fishy to me :-D
 #384645  by Newyorkcentralfan
 
It seems to me that given the sheer amount of fuel used by locomotives that synthetic fuel made out of coal would probably be the most useful for railroad use.
 #384650  by steamal
 
Well, I guess you could make alternative fuels out of coal, but coal has a reputation ---earned in the past--- of being polluting. Most of the "alternative fuels" crowd are trying to find non-polluting ---non-combustible, if possible--- fuels. Personally, I would like to see something that is not a petroleum product and keeps pollution to a minimum.

THAT is where I stand on the issue.

 #385372  by Vincent
 
Science magazine (8 December 2006) has an article titled "Carbon-Negative Biofuels from Low-Input High-Diversity Grassland Biomass"
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/a ... /5805/1598*

Basically "Low-Input High Diversity" means the crops are a mixture of grasses and legumes that are grown with very little added fertilizer or pesticides. The crops can be grown on degraded soil that is unsuitable for food production and they will yield more energy than corn ethanol or soybean biodiesel with less pollution and greenhouse gases. The big bonus is that converting the LIHD crops into biofuel is a carbon-negative process: the crops remove more carbon from the atmosphere during their growing cycle than they release during harvest and conversion into biofuel.

Of course, the technology to achieve any sort of contribution to transportation technology is years away, but the research is showing that corn ethanol isn't a long range solution either.

*The link provides an abstract of the article--go to your local library for the complete text--follow the link to "supporting online material" for more information.