Amtrak Diner and Food Service Discussion

Matt Johnson wrote:This was my favorite breakfast item on the Amtrak menu. Taken aboard the Texas Eagle in 2015.

I've taken Amtrak several times back and forth to Florida over the last 10 years and that famous "Railroad French Toast" has been long gone at least on the East Coast anyway.

Update from 30 (15); can confirm that the short ribs (with polenta) replaced the chilled beef tenderloin salad. The entree (and only the entree) is reheated in one of the upper-level convection ovens in the diner-lounge prior to serving. It was pretty good.

There is, however, a significant logistical problem that must be addressed. I think this problem is compounded by the operational characteristics of the eastbound Capitol Limited and I'd be interested to hear from someone on a westbound train now that there's a hot option.

We had two fairly full sleepers, plus some people in the transdorm. The practice of taking reservations in the Metropolitan Lounge has ceased. While the attendant began taking reservations on our departure from Chicago, this process did not finish until close to 8 PM Central, or an hour after departure. The second issue relates to throughput and the "hot" item. Amtrak opened a real can of worms when it bowed to the pressure. The short ribs were by far the most popular item; probably half the passengers ordered it. However, each entree has to be reheated in the upstairs convection ovens. I think there are two. Even with someone from the crew assisting, there's only so much the attendant could do, when she's also assembling the rest of the order, including drinks. I didn't sit down to eat until 11 PM Eastern. Others ate before me of course; the 3000 car was last in line.

These problems have solutions: more efficient use of the space in the diner-lounge, online pre-ordering, restoring pre-ordering from the Metropolitan Lounge, possibly additional staff. The departure time of the eastbound Capitol Limited aggravates this situation because there's no time to prepare after departure. On the way out the attendant (who did not have to grapple with a hot entree) was able to take orders between 4-5 and then start preparing meals before the first times came up. I think we also had fewer people aboard which helped. I will say that the attendant did a fantastic job coping last night and that the passengers treated her with the utmost respect and kindness. Still, this isn't a sustainable situation and improvements will have to be made.

Mackensen » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:36 am

The short ribs were by far the most popular item; probably half the passengers ordered it.

Hey Amtrak, people want hot meals!

Still, this isn't a sustainable situation and improvements will have to be made.

Like a full Diner with appropriate crew and menu.

R&DB wrote:Like a full Diner with appropriate crew and menu.

Probably a political and financial impossibility:

• Traditional sit-down dining services lose money
• In the era of private service these losses were borne because railroads saw them as loss-leaders
• Congress has regulated Amtrak such that even if Amtrak wanted to treat dining cars as loss-leaders it can't

It is what it is. There's a couple possible solutions to this dilemma:

• Obtain revisions to said regulations so that Amtrak has a free hand on food-service losses.
• Raise prices on dining car offerings until they cover losses.
• Kill dining car service entirely and see what happens.
• Refactor dining car service into something that doesn't lose money, stopping short of killing it altogether.
• Meddle and muddle and hope Congress doesn't pay too close attention to the books.

It's my impression that Boardman pursued the fifth option. Moorman and Anderson seem to have played around with the second (witness the introduction of the $39 Field and Sea option, which I never saw anyone order) and the third (the Silver Star, making a virtue out of the Heritage diner shortage) before settling on the fourth. Amtrak's dealing with a hostile administration and its traditional allies, the Democrats, aren't giving the railroads any breathing space on PTC implementation. Amtrak's not going to burn its political capital on dining car losses on the long-distance trains when PTC and Gateway are on the table. Anyone who thinks they should needs to reconsider their priors.

I witnessed a fiasco of sorts last night, but on reflection this morning I have some additional thoughts as related to the points above:

• The food quality from the boxed meals, in my opinion and in the opinion of passengers I informally surveyed (leaving aside the NARP folks on board who have an axe to grind), matches the traditional dining car offerings. It's also consistent in quality and preparation. This does not represent a downgrade in that sense.
• The traditional dining cars suffer from similar throughout issues, although not as extreme. It's not uncommon to sit a long time after your sitting waiting to place an order, then waiting even long for your food. This is masked by the vaunted social aspect of community seating, but it's real and it's annoying. Adding more wait staff would address that issue, but see above about food-service losses.

My sense is that some posters here want the long-distance trains to be more like VIAs's Canadian--a land-cruise which is priced accordingly. Such a train might be financially viable but would lose much of its political support. For Amtrak it represents the road not taken. It has flirted with the idea on occasion, like the Keystone Classic Club or the stillborn Luxury Transcontinental, but it's never really panned out. The closest you'll get to a service like that is First Class on the Acela, but that's (a) a targeted premium offering on a route which has other service, (b) supported by dedicated rolling stock and (c) has its financials inextricably bound up with the Northeast Corridor. None of these factors are in play with the LDs. These are the facts on the ground and they aren't easily changed.

Mackensen wrote: However, each entree has to be reheated in the upstairs convection ovens. I think there are two. Even with someone from the crew assisting, there's only so much the attendant could do, when she's also assembling the rest of the order, including drinks. I didn't sit down to eat until 11 PM Eastern. Others ate before me of course; the 3000 car was last in line.

These problems have solutions: more efficient use of the space in the diner-lounge, online pre-ordering, restoring pre-ordering from the Metropolitan Lounge, possibly additional staff. The departure time of the eastbound Capitol Limited aggravates this situation because there's no time to prepare after departure. On the way out the attendant (who did not have to grapple with a hot entree) was able to take orders between 4-5 and then start preparing meals before the first times came up. I think we also had fewer people aboard which helped. I will say that the attendant did a fantastic job coping last night and that the passengers treated her with the utmost respect and kindness. Still, this isn't a sustainable situation and improvements will have to be made.

How about changing the departure time? The Capital Limited departs Chicago at 6:40 PM, during the time many have dinner. Just moving it up one hour to 5:40 PM would help some, and moving it up two hours to 4:40 PM would help more. And Chicago is in the Central Time zone, not Eastern, so it's the equivalent of one hour later in Eastern. But here's the rub, fewer west coast passengers transferring from other trains that are usually late will be able to make it to Chicago in time to catch it. Amtrak has to balance these schedules - and sometimes that makes it tough on its staff.

Additionally, I'm not surprised to read that the "hot" menu item is the best seller.

electricron wrote:The Capital Limited departs Chicago at 6:40 PM, during the time many have dinner. Just moving it up one hour to 5:40 PM would help some, and moving it up two hours to 4:40 PM would help more. And Chicago is in the Central Time zone, not Eastern, so it's the equivalent of one hour later in Eastern.

Two hours later in Central Time is still two hours later in Eastern Time...

andrewjw wrote:

electricron wrote:The Capital Limited departs Chicago at 6:40 PM, during the time many have dinner. Just moving it up one hour to 5:40 PM would help some, and moving it up two hours to 4:40 PM would help more. And Chicago is in the Central Time zone, not Eastern, so it's the equivalent of one hour later in Eastern.

Two hours later in Central Time is still two hours later in Eastern Time...

While moving departure ahead may help the eating situation, I have to wonder what it would do to the connection situation from other trains.

Rockingham Racer wrote:

andrewjw wrote:

electricron wrote:The Capital Limited departs Chicago at 6:40 PM, during the time many have dinner. Just moving it up one hour to 5:40 PM would help some, and moving it up two hours to 4:40 PM would help more. And Chicago is in the Central Time zone, not Eastern, so it's the equivalent of one hour later in Eastern.

Two hours later in Central Time is still two hours later in Eastern Time...

While moving departure ahead may help the eating situation, I have to wonder what it would do to the connection situation from other trains.

Leaving aside for the moment whether NS and CSX could accommodate such a move (and that's a big if):

• The Capitol Limited arrives early enough into Pittsburgh as it is. A scheduled arrival of 5 AM with two hours before 42 boards is rough but tenable. Any earlier becomes a real hardship for everyone involved, including station personnel.
• If you move to 4 you permanently sever the connection with almost every Western LD: the Empire Builder (3:55 PM), possibly the California Zephyr (2:50 PM), and the Southwest Chief (3:15 PM). Admittedly the Builder is in meltdown right now but that would effectively break the LD network in half.
• The arriving 29 turns to become that day's 30 in Chicago. The closer the times move together the more fragile that becomes.
• You could move in the other direction and move the departure back to 7:30-8:00 PM. At the point, you can justify doing a cold/limited dinner (as on the City of New Orleans) or dropping it altogether (Lake Shore Limited). However, that would probably break the connection with the 42 in Pittsburgh unless you moved its departure back, at which point you're arriving in New York at the dinner hour which could depress patronage. You'd also be hitting DC late enough that lunch would have to be reinstated.

The tail shouldn't wag the dog in this case; there are less drastic ways to fix the dining situation, whether boxed or full-service. On a positive note I don't believe the train ran out of short ribs, though there was some concern along those lines. An electronic ordering system would fix some issues; and IIRC Amtrak's considering such.

I hope they add additional hot entrees (something chicken, something no-meat) and a box lunch option, and soon. It’s 2018, we have the technology.

That said, from my experience in food service, the margin on food is low - especially for perishable main courses. Amtrak should be selling higher-end coffee/tea/blended drinks (Dunkin has plenty) and warmed snacks in the diner to make extra cash.

electricron wrote: How about changing the departure time? The Capital Limited departs Chicago at 6:40 PM, during the time many have dinner. Just moving it up one hour to 5:40 PM would help some, and moving it up two hours to 4:40 PM would help more. And Chicago is in the Central Time zone, not Eastern, so it's the equivalent of one hour later in Eastern. But here's the rub, fewer west coast passengers transferring from other trains that are usually late will be able to make it to Chicago in time to catch it. Amtrak has to balance these schedules - and sometimes that makes it tough on its staff.

Moving it earlier might not be an option unless something else moves later. Amtrak owns Union Station, but the commuter rush hour schedule isn't something I'd want to mess with.

The experience that Mackensen reports is nearly identical to service level and quality aboard the Downeaster with the exception of such a long wait of course.

Amtrak is going to see some very significant improvements to their bottom line as a result of this change with minimal loss of quality.

As things stand right now the Downeaster covers 98% of its costs and that's with allocated costs included.

gokeefe wrote:Amtrak is going to see some very significant improvements to their bottom line as a result of this change with minimal loss of quality.

Would be really interesting to expand this concept with a few more hot choices and also as a 24 hour diner as I mentioned earlier in the thread. Maybe the diner could actually become a profit center if it's constantly dishing out meals all day and all night with a 1 - 2 person crew. Certainly worth a trial on the Lake Shore Limited.

There is a YouTube review on the Lake Shore Limited that actually mentions passengers boarding in the middle of the night searching for food and finding everything closed to their disappointment.

Why would you move a whole train schedule, just so you can serve dinner at a different time?. This whole discussion seems obsessed with dinners , there's alot more to riding a train than eating dinner.

bostontrainguy wrote:

Would be really interesting to expand this concept with a few more hot choices and also as a 24 hour diner as I mentioned earlier in the thread. Maybe the diner could actually become a profit center if it's constantly dishing out meals all day and all night with a 1 - 2 person crew.

An idea which needs a long test period on a route with somewhat busy intermediate stops. Lake Shore and Capitol Limited come to mind.

Now to the accepted "rule" that sit-down dining service loses money, The are hundreds of thousands of establishments across this country that prove this a fallacy. Dining cars on trains should be operated by experienced restaurateurs not railroaders. As others have noted some method of pre-selecting meals from the menu would improve diner patron turn-around time. Yes, labor costs will have to be addressed but so will meal pricing. If your labor cost are higher, your menu prices will be too. Included in those labor costs are crew bases and on-board accommodations. Perhaps a joint effort by a consortium of some of America's most successful chain restaurants should be considered to operate the dining and cafe cars. The experience of the consortium could be reflected in types of service and menu available on each route and each type of car, dining / cafe. And for those concerned about the unions, is it not better for the chefs and food service specialists to be employed at slightly lower wages rather than to be unemployed?

Restaurants in hotels also generally lose money.

One of my friends works with a major food/beverage distributor that distributes its items to airlines and sells them at retail, too. He says that they care about distribution to airlines but they couldn't care less about selling items through Amtrak; it's not even on their radar screen.