Aldene Plan - Montclair Connection

Okay - get out the crystal ball everybody.

I'm fairly new to New Jersey and rail-fanning, but my general sense is that most people think the Aldene Plan was a boondoggle and a major mistake for all the reasons listed over on the CNJ forum. Will railfans 25 years from now look back on the Montclair Connection in the same light?

Aldene Plan's long term effects:

I haven't lived in North Jersey since the late 60s, but I remember Westfield, Fanwood, Scotch Plains, etc. being statusy and posh areas for a big lower Manhattan commuter crowd (typically financial types, attorneys, etc.). These were big CNJ commuters.

Question: are these areas still they way they were with commuters? Is the housing market the same as I described?

pdman wrote:Aldene Plan's long term effects:

I haven't lived in North Jersey since the late 60s, but I remember Westfield, Fanwood, Scotch Plains, etc. being statusy and posh areas for a big lower Manhattan commuter crowd (typically financial types, attorneys, etc.). These were big CNJ commuters.

Question: are these areas still they way they were with commuters? Is the housing market the same as I described?

Yeah, it is still "posh" for the most part. With Westfield though, on one side of the tracks, it is very posh, and the other side of the tracks it is less posh.

The only people who think the Aldene plan was a mistake are train buffs who miss seeing the choo-choo going through Elizabeth.

As it stands now, commuters can get to New York, changing in Newark however. You dont hear anyone complaining about having to change in Newark, rather than changing in Jersey City, they complain about not having a one seat ride to New York. So it seems they actually want to go to Penn Station. If commuters actually wanted to go to Jersey City, I thnk their commuter group (the raritan valley colition, I think?) would be pushing for that, not for one seat service to NYC...

While the Montclair connection is not without its negative effects, most of the passengers who ride the trains to New York are quite happy to now have a one seat ride to NYC. They are also supporting it by boosting ridership on the Boonton Line east of Great Notch. Yes the people west of Great Notch to suffer, but that should be dealt with by adding service, etc. To undo the connection would be just plain silly.

Sirsonic wrote:The only people who think the Aldene plan was a mistake are train buffs who miss seeing the choo-choo going through Elizabeth.

As it stands now, commuters can get to New York, changing in Newark however. You dont hear anyone complaining about having to change in Newark, rather than changing in Jersey City, they complain about not having a one seat ride to New York. So it seems they actually want to go to Penn Station. If commuters actually wanted to go to Jersey City, I thnk their commuter group (the raritan valley colition, I think?) would be pushing for that, not for one seat service to NYC...

While the Montclair connection is not without its negative effects, most of the passengers who ride the trains to New York are quite happy to now have a one seat ride to NYC. They are also supporting it by boosting ridership on the Boonton Line east of Great Notch. Yes the people west of Great Notch to suffer, but that should be dealt with by adding service, etc. To undo the connection would be just plain silly.

There are also some folks who liked it because they thought that service was more reliable to the CNJ or they just liked it that way who are not buffs.

In actuality, though, the RVL runs pretty darn smoothly in its currenty configuration- delays aren't too common and aren't that bad at Cliff and Hunter. Also, NJT has plenty of major stations/terminals as it is and consolidating them is a good idea IMO and going to Newark provides riders with more options than CNJ: The PATH, the NJCL and NEC (yes, I know, you could change at Elizabeth for that too), Amtrak trains- regional, long distance and Acela/Metroliner, and plus, on weekends, some of the RVL trains go to Hoboken giving them more options- the ferry, Hoboken Division Stations etc.

I know its nearly 40 years, and still nothing, but I thought one of the major promised of the Aldene plan were the promise of a one seat ride into NY via dual mode locos. It does seem that that will happen, at least in our lifetimes now, so that definately would be an improvement over the CNJ service. Although I can easily see how it would be much faster for CNJ commuters to get to lower Manhattan via the JC terminal, with a decent ferry connection than it can be with NJT via Newark, especially with fregith congestion of the Lehigh line.

I have an old employee timetable from 1947 for the NY and LB - and the level of service, compared to today is amazing - a TREMENDOUS improvement. Also, the speeds are much higher now, and travel times are in general, slightly less for intermediate stops. Overall, the times aren't THAT much different. The PRR had a little bit of padding in their schedules too, i was surprised to see avg 24 minutes NWK to NY - but it doesn't say if its via Exchange Place and H and M or ferry or directly to NYP. A PRR MU set did Woodbridge Jct (Wood im assuming) to NWK in about a half hour - it doesn't say if it was an express or local. A "normal" NJT local (no Avenel, N. Elizabeth, but EWR) does it in 27 minutes, from Woodbridge station to NWK Penn.

But service in Monmouth County was of course impacted by the Aldene plan, by the elimination of Seashore Branch pass service, and wasn't service via Farmingdale/Sea Girt/Freehold abandoned at the same time (66) or was that a little earlier?

The only people who think the Aldene plan was a mistake are train buffs who miss seeing the choo-choo going through Elizabeth.

That would be me, Sirsonic. :-)

Yes, from a purely emotional, unobjective, irrational yet impassioned railfan point of view, I would LOVE to see Aldene severed - or at least only used as an option - and full service restored with NJT diesels roaring down the old four-track mainline heading for Broad St. Elizabeth (where passengers could change for the NEC - no worse than the transfer at Secaucus) and continue down to E'port for convenient light-rail service to the airport and mall. From there the train turns north and heads for Newark... (but I'm not exactly sure where - still have to figger' that one out :-)

Yes, I'm dreaming... nothing wrong with that.
BigDell

Sirsonic,

I well remember the press and other reports at the time. Commuters didn't want to go to Jersey City as such, but the large majority strongly preferred the 10 minute ferry ride to crowded and uncomfortable PATH and PRR trains which were being forced on them.

CNJ commuters also opposed the extension of PATH to Plainfield proposed at the time, not wanting a long PATH car ride even though it would have been a one-seat ride.

Note that anyone who wanted to could make a simple connection at Elizabeth from the CNJ to take the PRR train to NYC. Some did just that if within walking distance of NY Penn, but the vast majority stayed on the CNJ to Jersey City for the ferry connection.

The real reason for the Aldene Plan was the agenda of the Coast Guard and Port Authority to elimnate the CNJ Bay Draw which was too small to accomodate larger ships and perceived as a hazard to navigation.

You gotta remember that the Aldene Plan was the best thing two near bankrupt, independent railroads could come up with at the time. NJT was not the entity it is today and couldn't do what it can do today. Time was also of the essence to CNJ as the draw bridge was gone and there was no easy way across the Bay or out of thier predicament. Also, now, a lot has changed including traffic patterns, technology, ownership, mind sets, etc. If introduced today, Aldene possibly would not be implimented.

Back then it would have been more expensive, and near impossible logistically, plus inconvenient to passengers, to run all CNJ to E'port and up to Newark to CNJ Sta. The DL&W from West End to Hoboken was still absorbing the Erie traffic and adjusting to it. The LV was out of the passenger business entrely and down to one track into JC. In short, it was the best that could be done at the time with the time, resources, and rail structure.

Then again, really, how different would it be done today?

Sirsonic wrote:The only people who think the Aldene plan was a mistake are train buffs who miss seeing the choo-choo going through Elizabeth.

As it stands now, commuters can get to New York, changing in Newark however. You dont hear anyone complaining about having to change in Newark, rather than changing in Jersey City, they complain about not having a one seat ride to New York. So it seems they actually want to go to Penn Station. If commuters actually wanted to go to Jersey City, I thnk their commuter group (the raritan valley colition, I think?) would be pushing for that, not for one seat service to NYC...

While the Montclair connection is not without its negative effects, most of the passengers who ride the trains to New York are quite happy to now have a one seat ride to NYC. They are also supporting it by boosting ridership on the Boonton Line east of Great Notch. Yes the people west of Great Notch to suffer, but that should be dealt with by adding service, etc. To undo the connection would be just plain silly.

Sirsonic, I believe you could have written the beginning of your post with a lot less condescention.

I don't know how old you are, but I (and Big Dell) are old enough to remember the pre-Aldene Jersey Central. Having lived in Elizabeth, I can tell you for a fact that it was a faster and more reliable ride directly into Jersey City Terminal.

I frankly do not understand what the hang up with some of you regarding Jersey City. People traveled to Jersey City Terminal for the sole purpose of transiting to the ferry to lower Manhattan. Simple as that.....there is no rocket science about it. There was nothing around Jersey City Terminal in the pre-Aldene days except for railyards and neighboring railroad piers. But thats not the point. People were traveling to New York.

People traveling on the former Jersey Central mainline simply had to make a transfer at Broadt Street in Elizabeth, and walk up a flight of stairs to the PRR station at Broad Street, if they wanted to connect to a train.

I had also been mention on another forum that the travel time on the NJCL now takes longer today than it did on a Jersey Central train in 1955.

Does this make us as you rather inelequently put it "train buffs who miss seeing the choo-choo going through Elizabeth"??.......I think not .

As I mentioned earlier, we are people regularly rode that railroad on a day to day basis. We knew what it was like. And in retrospect, many of us wish the Aldene Plan had never ever happened.

henry6 wrote:You gotta remember that the Aldene Plan was the best thing two near bankrupt, independent railroads could come up with at the time. NJT was not the entity it is today and couldn't do what it can do today. Time was also of the essence to CNJ as the draw bridge was gone and there was no easy way across the Bay or out of thier predicament. Also, now, a lot has changed including traffic patterns, technology, ownership, mind sets, etc. If introduced today, Aldene possibly would not be implimented.

Back then it would have been more expensive, and near impossible logistically, plus inconvenient to passengers, to run all CNJ to E'port and up to Newark to CNJ Sta. The DL&W from West End to Hoboken was still absorbing the Erie traffic and adjusting to it. The LV was out of the passenger business entrely and down to one track into JC. In short, it was the best that could be done at the time with the time, resources, and rail structure.

Then again, really, how different would it be done today?

Well I belive that the money spent on the Aldene Plane could have been used for an major state-sponsored infrastructure improvement of the CNJ and its terminal operations.

The drawbridge was not gone at the time of the Aldene Plane BTW...The westbound span was heavily damaged in February 1966 from the collision of a ship and the railroad was reduced to 2 tracks across Newark Bay.

Could cuts have been made somewhere along the way...of course, but in the long run the Aldene Plane did nothing but a diservice for Jersey Central commuters.

Aldene was before my time.

I would have liked to see the Montclair Connection built strictly for electrics while diesels still blazed down the ERIE side into Kearny and across the wetlands.

I would have also liked to have seen Walnut Street and Bay Street eliminated with a new mega station at Pine Street / Mountainside Hospital.

Oh well.

CNJ,

When in high school I had a part time job as a photographer for the weekly Bayonne newspaper. I went out onto the draw, with railroad permission, to photograph the aftermath of the ship collision. My photo appeared in Trains Mag, a real thrill for a 16 year old.

Also, when I started to walk back from the draw section, a CNJ employee said "why are you walking?" and I got my first speeder ride, back to Bayonne West 8th!

People traveling on the former Jersey Central mainline simply had to make a transfer at Broadt Street in Elizabeth, and walk up a flight of stairs to the PRR station at Broad Street, if they wanted to connect to a train.

Absolutely. Most of the people I knew who commuted from Westfield and that area all happily transferred at Broad St. for the train to NY Penn. It often included a stop at Brown's paper/tobacco store near the NEC station steps. That was a neat little place.
But yes, CNJ is right, it was a VERY quick and easy transfer from CNJ's Broad St. station up to the NEC. Was it worth the price of Aldene when the time saved was negligable or non-existant? Probably not.

But I also have to say that I do miss seeing the "choo-choo" (as Sirsonic succinctly put it) rollin' through Elizabeth on the way to the port -and I think it was horribly short-sighted to destroy the mainline and the E-port infrastructure - both from a freight and a passenger ops POV.

But again, that is just my VERY humble opinion...... :-)
BigDell

We've been discussing this on the NJT Forum. I think the Aldene Plan was a disaster that needs to be undone. That includes moving NJCL "CNJ-side" trains back to a waterfront terminal... Hoboken being my first choice.

If I had my druthers, you'd see some RVL service to Newark and the "PRR-side" NJCL schedules to Newark and NYP. All other RVL and NJCL service would run to Hoboken via E'port and Greenville, up the National Docks to a new connector at Hoboken.

This would give passengers choices (like they had 40 years ago) and also alleviate stress on the NEC.

JH