Adirondack NYC Timetable Question

Hi there

I'm hoping one of you learned gentlemen here could assist with helping me understand the attached timetable.

Does Train #105 become #104 and Train #2 become Train #3 and/or vice versa ?

Or does #105 become #2 for the return journey to Lake Clear Junction ?

Any advice in interpreting the attached timetable would be greatly appreciated.

I believe it is circa 1952 or 1953 ?

Many thanks

David

Hi bagman
The trains you are asking about, they were connecting with trains on the main line , at Lake Clear jct. This is why the timetable times were so spread out .

Hi Pat

Thank you for replying. Looking further into the timetable, unless I am mistaken it appears these trains actually ran to Utica ?

Does that sound correct ?

If I was living in Lake Placid, would I be right in thinking that there were 2 trains daily i.e. #2 that departed at 8.20am and #104 that departed at 9.35pm.

That leads me to ask, where did the trains comes from ? Utica as #105 that arrived Lake Placid at 8am and turned around as #2 leaving at 8.20am ?

Apologies for my "dumbness" !!

Regards

David

Hi David
I hope this answers your question, yes the trains did come from Untica, that was the mainline for the branch. If you go to a train show try to pick up and employee 's timetable , there is a pile of information in them .
Also you can go to this web site http://www.canadiansouthern.com/caso/home.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Pat.

This question interests me because the NYC line involved was the Adirondack Division and we discussed this at some length not long ago in the forum. Thread link. There's another thread pertaining to this route as well. Here.

Basically the ETT schedule bagman posted shows trains running on the Lake Placid Branch of the Adirondack Division. In looking at some system timetables this was a winter schedule -- in the early 1950s there was still a third train on the branch in the summer -- and the times correspond with the schedule that took effect in September 1952.

Below I have inserted an Adirondack Div. schedule from the September 1952 system timetable. Note that Trains 2 and 3 originate/terminate at Lake Placid. Trains 4 and 5 originate/terminate at Montreal. So Trains 104 and 105 shown in the ETT listing are actually connecting trains from/to Lake Placid that connect to the Utica-Montreal trains at Lake Clear Jct.

In September 1952 No. 104 handled a Lake Placid-New York City sleeping car and through coach to Lake Clear Jct. for No. 4. No. 4 then connected with No. 44 at Utica. No. 44 was the New York Special running Chicago-New York via Detroit. No. 4 also handled a Montreal-Buffalo sleeper, connecting to No. 35 the Iroquois at Utica. No. 35 was a Boston-Chicago train that ran via Cleveland.

No. 4 arrived Utica at 2:10 AM and presumably the crew, locomotive (and perhaps a local coach) turned as No. 5 which then departed Utica at 3:00 AM. At Utica No. 5 connected with No. 21, the North Star, a New York-Cleveland train (with a Toronto section). No. 5 picked up a New York City-Lake Placid sleeping car and through coach from No. 21 at Utica. The Lake Placid cars were then handled by No. 105 between Lake Clear Jct. and Lake Placid. In addition, No. 5 also picked up a Buffalo-Montreal sleeper at Utica from Train No. 46 the Interstate Limited from Chicago via Detroit.
.

Hi Tommy

Thank you so much for that very detailed explanation. Greatly appreciated.

Very clear to me now how the timetable worked.

That being said, and using your example of Trains 2 and 3, am I right in thinking that Train 2 Departs Lake Placid at 8.20am, arrives at Utica 12.50pm, Departs Utica as Train 3 at 1.30pm arriving back at Lake Placid at 6.05pm ?

I can see now that Trains 104 and 105 are in effect "shuttle" trains that made connections at Lake Clear Junction.

So Train 104 Departs Lake Placid at 9.35pm, Arrives Lake Clear Jct at 10.15pm to make connection with Train 4 from Montreal which Departs Lake Clear Jct at 10.32pm.

Is that correct ??

Thank you once again for all your assistance and also for those to additional thread links which I found very helpful as well.

Regards

David

bagman wrote:...
That being said, and using your example of Trains 2 and 3, am I right in thinking that Train 2 Departs Lake Placid at 8.20am, arrives at Utica 12.50pm, Departs Utica as Train 3 at 1.30pm arriving back at Lake Placid at 6.05pm?....
David

You're very welcome David.

Yes Train 104 terminated upon arrival at Lake Clear Jct. with its equipment being added to No. 4. As to whether Train 2 turned at Utica I'm not really sure. In fact I have kind of regretted writing the below:

Tommy Meehan wrote:....No. 4 arrived Utica at 2:10 AM and presumably the crew, locomotive (and perhaps a local coach) turned as No. 5 which then departed Utica at 3:00 AM.....

I guess it depends on the era. In the steam days I wonder if they could've turned the steam locomotive that quickly. Possible perhaps. For one thing, these steam locomotives operated through Adirondack State Park and there were state regulations requiring they burn oil not coal. But the problem might've been in the winter with heavy snow and sub-freezing temperatures, it might've been better to have another locomotive ready at Utica rather than try and make the turn in under an hour.

As for the crews it might be the same problem. If No. 4 was going to be very late into Utica and No. 5's connections were running on-time, it might be a problem for Central to have had to call a relief crew off the extra board. Also the run from Lake Clear Jct. to Utica was 125 miles, which was a day's work for the train and engine crews. Now since No. 4 departed Lake Clear Jct (which was a crew point) at 10:32 PM and No. 5 arrived there at 6:46 AM that was within the hours-of-service limit of sixteen hours. That would've been 8-hours-and-fourteen-minutes. However the 250 total miles traveled might've meant two days pay for the crew. So again I guess it was possible. I wonder what they actually did though.

I have to look again at the North Country News Archive. I think I recall a retired engineman who had been based out of Lake Clear Jct. talking about staying overnight in the bunkhouse at Utica when he worked the passenger train. So the passenger train schedules might've been set up the way they were primarily because all the railroad involved was single-track.

Thanks again Tommy.
This really is very helpful info and I do appreciate anything further you are able to find out.

My interest in the timetable operations stems from my model railroad which I have based on the branch from Lake Clear Jct to Lake Placid.

Whilst not being obsessive about operation it would be good if I could operate the railroad on at least a semi-accurate basis.

Many thanks again

Regards

David

Tommy,

No quick turns at Utica as power went to the roundhouse on the north side of the mainline west of the station and branch.

Layovers at each terminal were about 10' to 12', including Malone.

What a treat it must have been to ride that line. I could kick myself for not riding it when the whole line got restored to service for a short period around the 1980 Winter Olympics

One of the interesting things about the Adirondack Division is the difference between Tupper lake and Lake Clear Jct. It's not too clear to me how passenger trains were handled at each point. Tupper Lake was the traditional intermediate division point where crews were based on the Adirondack Division. This was where many facilities were located, including the freight classification yard, engine terminal, bulletin board. See below for facilities (equipped with phones) listed there in a 1941 ETT:



However passenger schedules from the same ETT do not show any more than a brief stop at Tupper Lake. It is at Lake Clear Jct. where all passenger trains halt for several minutes, presumably where crews changed. Below are times for northward trains:




Note that all the passenger trains that operate through Lake Clear Jct pause ten minutes there. However, the ETT only lists two facilities there: the station office and the conductor's room.

Here's two photos taken at Lake Clear Jct. from a North Country library collection.

First is a closeup of the station about 1900:



Second is a news photo from the 1940s which shows a southbound passenger train doing some switching. The Saranac Branch to Lake Placid is to the right.



.

Just finnished reading a good little book on this portion of the NYC: "Fairy Tale Railroad" (The Mohawk and Malone: From the Mohawk, through the Adirondacks to the St. Lawerence) by Henry A. Harter. I got this from my local library. I don't know if some one posted this earlier, but very interesting reading...except for the UCA-Remsen-Thendara line (and Lake Placid-Saranac) all gone.

Maybe of interest, the line mentioned is now the focus of a hot debate between the "rails to trails"
folks and the rail preservationists - especially the Adirondack Scenic Railroad. One side wants to turn
the remaining track into a trail - I have heard of various lengths - from Tupper Lake all the way to Lake
Placid. Some articles have mentioned Saranac Lake to Lake Placid (now operated by ASR) as being "the
target" for this venture. Of course, New York State and a couple of its agencies are involved, so, who knows
how screwed-up the end result will be. Has been a heated battle all summer.

Bigt wrote:Maybe of interest, the line mentioned is now the focus of a hot debate between the "rails to trails"
folks and the rail preservationists

The New York State forum has a thread on this, 14 pages so far. http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=153983" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;