69th Street Terminal, No Regional Rail Connection

Why was a regional rail line never run in/near the terminal? The R6 runs through the Norristown Transportation Center. My understanding is that Septa had the rails, the old Cardington line that branched off the Newtown Square Branch, actually went to 69th street. You can see rails that run behind the terminal when you ride the Market El. This would make the terminal more accessible. It would appear that R5 would be closest rail line, with R3 second best. I guess they would feel that this would threaten their Market El line. However, a Regional rail line would offer a similar connection to the Market-East and Suburban stations areas of the city, just more expensive. The Market El is still the cheaper/quicker way to travel, so I don't see a direct threat. Plus you would now be able to offer rides from 69th st to Malvern or Doylestown areas or even West Trenton via the R3 areas which you can not currently reach from the terminal. There would be a need for more parking (how about the old parking behind Milbourne station?) and ticket stations. There would be no reason for a new transfer system, since the regional rails are on another seperate system anyhow. I think this would be a very valuable connection for Septa.

SeptaR4 wrote:Why was a regional rail line never run in/near the terminal? The R6 runs through the Norristown Transportation Center. My understanding is that Septa had the rails, the old Cardington line that branched off the Newtown Square Branch, actually went to 69th street. You can see rails that run behind the terminal when you ride the Market El. This would make the terminal more accessible. It would appear that R5 would be closest rail line, with R3 second best. I guess they would feel that this would threaten their Market El line. However, a Regional rail line would offer a similar connection to the Market-East and Suburban stations areas of the city, just more expensive. The Market El is still the cheaper/quicker way to travel, so I don't see a direct threat. Plus you would now be able to offer rides from 69th st to Malvern or Doylestown areas or even West Trenton via the R3 areas which you can not currently reach from the terminal. There would be a need for more parking (how about the old parking behind Milbourne station?) and ticket stations. There would be no reason for a new transfer system, since the regional rails are on another seperate system anyhow. I think this would be a very valuable connection for Septa.

Hey, I have a better idea. Let's just shift the 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, and every other Suburban route's terminus to City Hall in downtown Philly?? The system works fine as it is. To get to the RR from 69th street you have a plethora of options. MFL to 30th Street, 15th, or 13th. Rt 100 to Norristown (R6), Rt100 to Villanova & walk to R5, Rt 102 to Clifton-Alden (R3) and several bus routes to various other points.

It's also somewhat notable that a lot of people that live near both the trolley lines and Regional Rail (101/102 for the R3, 100 and the R5) take the transit option. This is especially the case along the mainline, as the travel time between 100/MFL and the R5 are comparable.

Why? Because the P&W was supposed to be part of a trans-continental railroad, but it never happened. If it did, then you'd have a commuter rail stop at 69th Street.

Wow... what faith you have in the connections at 69th street. You must not rely on them to get you anywhere on time or at a time that is reliable. Trust me I have. I won't even go into the buses since this a rail forum. Except for the Market El, going from 69th st to center city, these other ways you mentioned would take you about 1.5-2 hours. Regional rails do not link up to trolley schedules. You would be able to walk faster. I used to also take the Route 100, however, but I worked right by the Norristown Trans Center. So that was a quick route. Guess I just see a suburban trans system that is not as reliable as desired. Any way to make it connect would seem more efficient, but maybe I am just being wide eyed.

SeptaR4 wrote:Why was a regional rail line never run in/near the terminal? The R6 runs through the Norristown Transportation Center. My understanding is that Septa had the rails, the old Cardington line that branched off the Newtown Square Branch, actually went to 69th street. You can see rails that run behind the terminal when you ride the Market El. This would make the terminal more accessible.

Yes, and just how wide IS that right of way (even with the jungle cleared away)? The Cardington branch was adequate to supply equipment to the terminal, nothing more. Narrow, winding along creek beds, ... hardly suitable as a heavily-used commuter link between center city and 69th Street.

SeptaR4 wrote:Why was a regional rail line never run in/near the terminal? The R6 runs through the Norristown Transportation Center. My understanding is that Septa had the rails, the old Cardington line that branched off the Newtown Square Branch, actually went to 69th street. You can see rails that run behind the terminal when you ride the Market El. This would make the terminal more accessible. It would appear that R5 would be closest rail line, with R3 second best. I guess they would feel that this would threaten their Market El line. However, a Regional rail line would offer a similar connection to the Market-East and Suburban stations areas of the city, just more expensive. The Market El is still the cheaper/quicker way to travel, so I don't see a direct threat. Plus you would now be able to offer rides from 69th st to Malvern or Doylestown areas or even West Trenton via the R3 areas which you can not currently reach from the terminal. There would be a need for more parking (how about the old parking behind Milbourne station?) and ticket stations. There would be no reason for a new transfer system, since the regional rails are on another seperate system anyhow. I think this would be a very valuable connection for Septa.

The major reason was that at the time the Terminal was built and the rail lines in that area were established ( in 1907), what are now SETPA's Regional Rail lines were PRR suburban lines running out of Broad Street Station in Center City. And at that time, they were still steam operated. Since the PRR didn't run passenger service on the Cardigan Branch, there would have been no thought of connecting it to anything at 69th Street. Also remember that the Terminal was a joint venture of the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Co. and Red Arrow Predecessor Philadelphia and West Chester Traction Co., both transit operations and competitors of the PRR's suburban services. In those days, the PRR was not likely to do anything that would appear to benefit its competitors. ( in the 19th Century, the PRR had tried to physically block the construction by the P&WCT of a crossing at Llanerch for the West Chester Line with the PRR's Newtown Square Branch by stationing a steam engine on the crossing and spraying live steam on Traction Co. construction workers whenever they tried to install the crossing-- it took court action and some arrests for the crossing to ultimately be completed)
The period in which the terminal and the RRD lines have been owned by the same entity ( SEPTA) dates only from the 1980s--- long after the rail infrasturcture in that area was built.

Ok, well some of these explainations make sense. I guess I just hope I live to see a NEW Septa rail project in my lifetime. Whether its the R6 expansion, the Newtown or West Chester reopening, or just something new. Although I am not sure I will even see the WaWa station for the R3 ever reopened again. I guess I am more of a dreamer then I am a 'techie' like most of the guys here who love to know car numbers and noises on trains. I like to see progress. I don't have patience for the diplomatic process and pencil pushing number crunching with decisions of a major transportation system being made by people who do not rely or use the system to get to their own jobs. Hope one day that the transportation system in the Philadelphia area will not continue to sit in the shadows behind NY and other major metro area systems.

SeptaR4 wrote:I don't have patience for the diplomatic process and pencil pushing number crunching with decisions of a major transportation system being made by people who do not rely or use the system to get to their own jobs. Hope one day that the transportation system in the Philadelphia area will not continue to sit in the shadows behind NY and other major metro area systems.

I think a significant portion of the number crunching is for the benefit of potential users. If you can't justify a project, you'll NEVER get it finished. Ever heard of the Cincinatti Subway?

SeptaR4 wrote:Ok, well some of these explainations make sense. I guess I just hope I live to see a NEW Septa rail project in my lifetime. Whether its the R6 expansion, the Newtown or West Chester reopening, or just something new. Although I am not sure I will even see the WaWa station for the R3 ever reopened again. I guess I am more of a dreamer then I am a 'techie' like most of the guys here who love to know car numbers and noises on trains. I like to see progress. I don't have patience for the diplomatic process and pencil pushing number crunching with decisions of a major transportation system being made by people who do not rely or use the system to get to their own jobs. Hope one day that the transportation system in the Philadelphia area will not continue to sit in the shadows behind NY and other major metro area systems.

I understand and share your idealism in this area. The reality, at least for establishing some commuter railroad service to 69th Street which would run off one of the RRD lines is that this would require significant new construction in an area that is already significantly congested physically, and would require constructing something that doesn't exist anywhere close to 69th Street--- a heavy, almost class 1 rail infrastucture. The presently existing rail infrastructure is essentially what is known today as "urban rapid transit"--- much lighter in construction than the commuter lines of the RRD. And, given the realities of available financing, it is not likely that you will see that kind of construction in that area at any time in the forseeable future.

I would also note, that as one who grew up in the Philly area ( about two miles from 69th Street) but who has lived in the Baltimore -Washington Corridor for more than 40 years, I can tell you that in spite of everything everyone says about SEPTA--with significant justification--, Philly has a rail infrastructure that this area is still trying to achieve. The DC metro has been a major improvement in that area, but we still only have five commuter rail lines running out of DC, none of which uses its own ROW. Baltimore has one light rail line and one subway line, and has two of the MARC commuter lines entering the city from DC. Not nearly the level of rail infrastucture that is available in Philly.

Although multiple alternatives have benefits, they also have costs, primarily that they duplicate something else. It's hard to justify a class 1 traditional commuter railroad from point A to point B when there's already a subway-elevated from point A to point B. Also in this example the Market St subway-elevated goes pretty straight down Market St. with a semicircle to avoid the hill between 69th and 63rd St. Your desired commuter railroad hookup would either need to share that route, or lose some of the not necessarily guaranteed speed advantage since by taking a less direct route. Much of the speed advantage of the R1, R2, R3, R5, R6, R8 on the Pennsy side is that they run nonstop for quite a distance from Eastwick, Sharon Hill-Darby, Fernwood-Angora, Overbrook, Wynnewood, North Phlly. And most of those stops are a lot closer to existing light rail termini that one could argue should get extended to meet the railroad.

Also if 69th St deserves more multi-modal connection with a higher level of railroad, I would argue that Frankford terminal deserves it too, and that's a lot closer to Amtrak-Septa northeast corridor than 69th St is to Amtrak-Septa Paoli-Harrisburg or Septa Media railroads.

Your idea is railfan fantasy, and that's ok, but if we're fantasizing I recommend extending the route 10 from 63rd and Malvern to 63rd and City Overbrook railroad station, 11-13 from downtown Darby 9th and Main to Darby raikriad station, 36 from Elmwood Ave at the railroad, but not at a station, to Airport or Eastwick railroad stations, 102 from MacDade Blvd to Sharon Hill railroad station. And maybe 34 from 61st and Baltimore to Church La or Lansdowne Ave. the 34 already stops a block away from Angora station, these extensions would have it a block away from Fernwood and Lansdowne stations.

It would be nice if there were a transfer station to the R5, maybe move Radnor east. having a ten minute walk between stations is dumb, and hardly anyone does it. It woudl have been quite useful in some of my past commutes and woudl provide a connection between the R5 corridor and the R6 corridor (and KoP). For delco, it's a connection to the heavily used R5 which serves, among other places, Great Valley Corp park.

Suburban Station wrote:It would be nice if there were a transfer station to the R5, maybe move Radnor east. having a ten minute walk between stations is dumb, and hardly anyone does it...

That idea was proposed along with a park-and-ride when the Blue Route was (finally) built, but IIRC the North Wayne Protective Association went ballistic. There was a lot of fuss about "changing the character of the area". Now, the surrounding land is almost entirely used by schools and corporate parks so I'm sure their opposition was a cover for "we don't want to make it any easier for those people to come out here".

To show just how out of touch some of 'em are, around that time my wife was on the P&W with a few people who had to switch from the R5 due to some sort of power problems. It was at rush hour with a lot of reverse commuters. One of the suit-types made a comment on the order of "is there a rap concert out here or something?" She threw it back at him by explaining that they were headed to the corporate centers to work . At least the guy shut up for the rest of the trip.

JeffK wrote:...

Nice - injecting race into the discussion.

I think you missed my point. I was expressing my disgust at those who did inject race and economic status under the guise of "protecting" their community, and the fact that their prejudice prevented construction of a valuable interchange point between 3 different transit modes.