Wisconsin Talgos Disposition - MI and now Pacific Surfliner

I'm puzzling my way through Mr Norman's piece. If Michigan has no true need to replace some Horizons and it's going to be a pain to maintain Talgos - what was their motivation to request proposals?

dowlingm wrote:I'm puzzling my way through Mr Norman's piece. If Michigan has no true need to replace some Horizons and it's going to be a pain to maintain Talgos - what was their motivation to request proposals?

Seconded - Michigan owes no favors to either Wisconsin or Talgo, so Mr. Norman's point makes little sense. Keep in mind, Amtrak could be the winning bidder on this RFP with the existing Horizon or Amfleet equipment (or even refurbished Metroliner Michigan coaches, wherever they went), but Talgo has a huge interest in getting their foot in the door. Minnesota hasn't signed onto the Midwest Bilevel order, nor has Indiana or Iowa, and Michigan may well decide to sell their share of the cars and go Talgo for all their routes if they like what they see. This is Talgo's last chance to be taken seriously in the USA east of the Cascade Range.

dowlingm wrote:I'm puzzling my way through Mr Norman's piece. If Michigan has no true need to replace some Horizons and it's going to be a pain to maintain Talgos - what was their motivation to request proposals?

I've read elsewhere that MDOT Amtrak yearly subsidies rose to almost $30 Million per year from close to $5 Million per year recently. Much of that increase is from MDOT subsidizing the maintenance on the old Horizon equipment they weren't required to do before. That's why most of the MidWest states, North Carolina, California, and Pacific Northwest states are purchasing railcars for Amtrak to run; it's cheaper to do so over time. And that's the reason why MDOT may buy or lease available Talgos now; because it is cheaper.
Note I'm not suggesting that MDOT will, should, or shouldn't buy or lease the Talgos, I'm just suggesting that this could be their motivation.

Is it possible that Amtrak is running out of spare coaches and wrecks to repair, and that they are unable to lengthen Michigan trains? The DownEaster also has been getting more coaches for holidays, which may have reduced the idle supply available for those who asked too late.

mtuandrew wrote: (or even refurbished Metroliner Michigan coaches, wherever they went)

There were only five of those I believe, and I read that one was damaged beyond repair in a yard collision. The four remaining I guess ended up in Bear, DE storage. I remember seeing them on the NEC occasionally until maybe a little over a decade ago - here's one on the Three Rivers immediately behind the HHP-8. The blanked out cab and missing door give it away.

Are the states mandated to seek RFP's by the PRRIA legislation, or simply empowered too. If mandated , that would explain Michigan and Indiana's recent requests for bids.
Reading between the lines of a few articles, it appears the most likely eventual destination for the Talgos, the Pacific Northwest, is unable to add more trains for a few years . It seems the Time period Michigan requires trainsets prior to the delivery of the new bilevels, fits into this nicely.
As far as I can see Talgo has done nothing wrong, the Talgos are the best equipment available right now in the USA, and hopefully they get to be used.

Talgo USA is bailing out of Milwaukee,when the train sets leave,the remaining office staff will pull the plug.
Unknown if Talgo USA will set up shop in Detroit if the sets go to Mi,there's plenty of space to create a whole new
production line in a former automotive factory bldg,and plenty of skilled factory workers to man it.

I would imagine that the Talgos will reduce running times on the route to shorter than existing timetables. Once people get used to these faster schedules it would be difficult to introduce slower equipment so the Talgos would probably be here to stay.

I think Talgo got treated badly and this opportunity is well deserved. I have ridden these trains and the passive "KISS" technology is very smart and works very well.

Long live Talgo!

Volks, I sincerely respect any member who holds the view that this is idle passenger rail equipment; and that stuff today is scarcer than hen's teeth. So long as it is there, let's put it to use for the immediate short term and address a long term solution later. For ready reference, I have captioned the portion of my posting appertaining the discussion and that appears in full on the previous page:

Gilbert B Norman wrote:This is not to say that these trains will see revenue service on the Michigan routes - even though so far as I'm concerned, such would be a waste of resources. Michigan is party to the 'Midwest bi-level' equipment order, which is a-building (the Nippon Sharyu plant is clearly visible from I-88 at Rochelle), and I'd like to think there is another three or so years of economic life to the Horizon fleet (they're really 'not all that bad'). Should that initiative move forth, considerable $$$ would be required to train Amtrak Shop and Operating employees on this 'two of a kind' equipment. While Talgo has relied upon contracted-out maintenance for the Cascades equipment at Seattle, I'd place my bets that no party is about to propose such in the highly Unionized work environment here in Chicago. While of late, Michigan has become more Union-hostile, where would such a contract maintenance facility be built?

First, let us note it would appear that Talgo and the railfan community are on the same page - get the stuff rolling and a few Pesetas (whoops; Euros for the moment) in our pocket - and you guys will have some unique equipment available to be photographed. Win; Win.

The traveling public will also benefit as I can only consider the CHI-DET route (last rode during '12 to ARB) to be arduous - and Talgo equipment can shave time off existing schedules, hey, let's go for it. But what I think is being overlooked is that first Michigan has committed to sufficient equipment in the Midwest bi-level equipment order to meet their existing requirements, and so far as Amtrak is concerned, 'non-standard' equipment will be operating on some of their trains.

OK; so let's say that an outside contract maintenance facility is established somewhere in Michigan (no doubt staffed by Talgo employed non-Agreement people) and the equipment can be cycled through such for scheduled periodics, and that a Technician (Talgo employed; non-Agreement) rides all trains and is qualified to change light bulbs, fix PA's, and keep food handling equipment in good order. But what happens when a Talgo set needs a wheel or brake replacement? Amtrak would have to have resources (human and mechanical) available - and that means $$$$ that some party will have to pony up.

While I realize that parties are working diligently to put this equipment to use, and avoid a 'Turbos at Bear' situation , there may be no reasonable and practical alternative, which so far as I'm concerned, a short term lease to Michigan is not.

At least one positive here has been established; that Scotty has no ownership interest in the equipment, and should the 'send 'em back where they came from' becomes the only option, he will not be able to have a 'ridding waste from our land' deckside rant.

full disclosure: author is no fan of Talgo equipment; one ride Bilbao-Madrid during 1990 was a 'once in a lifetime' experience and for which no encore is needed.

bostontrainguy wrote:I would imagine that the Talgos will reduce running times on the route to shorter than existing timetables. Once people get used to these faster schedules it would be difficult to introduce slower equipment so the Talgos would probably be here to stay.

I think Talgo got treated badly and this opportunity is well deserved. I have ridden these trains and the passive "KISS" technology is very smart and works very well.

Long live Talgo!

I think this discussion is ignoring what Michigan is seeking in its RFP. The core of which is available here. I suggest people at least skim it. Michigan, Illinois, and Missouri will be getting 82 corridor bi-level cars courtesy of federal money with only a minimal outlay of state funds. The corridor bi-level cars will provide a lot of capacity and flexibility. And the contract with Nippon-Sharyo has options for 300 more coach cars which will make it easy for the states to buy additional cars if they need them (and have the money).

Michigan DOT is very specifically seeking rolling stock for use only through the end of 2017, By then all the corridor bi-level cars from Nippon-Sharyo should be delivered. I doubt that there will be any schedule changes to take specific advantage of the Talgos as the trip times should be improved in multiple stages as the track work projects are (finally) completed. The faster speeds of the Talgos through curves is likely to be used to improve the On-Time Performance which currently sucks for the Wolverine service. The Wolverine service also currently uses 3 trainsets and there are only 2 Talgo trainsets. So there will still be a Horizon set in use on the Wolverine service.

I doubt that MIDOT will save any money by leasing the Talgos for only 3+ years. My guess is that MIDOT's main motivation in seeking to to use the Talgos is a result of the breakdowns and freeze-ups that took place in January and February. Was not good for PR for the state's efforts to develop the Wolverine service. There are 2 new modern trainsets sitting there in WI which should be more reliable in winter weather. If there is a way to address the maintenance support issue in a temporary facility, why not use the Talgos to promote the service until the new bi-levels arrive? Of course, this may not work out for any number of legal, contractural, or technical reasons.

David Benton wrote:Are the states mandated to seek RFP's by the PRRIA legislation, or simply empowered too. If mandated , that would explain Michigan and Indiana's recent requests for bids.
Reading between the lines of a few articles, it appears the most likely eventual destination for the Talgos, the Pacific Northwest, is unable to add more trains for a few years . It seems the Time period Michigan requires trainsets prior to the delivery of the new bilevels, fits into this nicely.
As far as I can see Talgo has done nothing wrong, the Talgos are the best equipment available right now in the USA, and hopefully they get to be used.

Talgo Spain have found it impossible to sell any coaches outside of Iberia in the rest of Europe. I haven't travelled in any of them but I think they are too dependent on special track conditions for use outside Iberia. The same may be true of the US. I would not expect to see them expand outside of their current locations.

I thought they had bilevels in use elswhere in Europe.also a multi gauge set that went from Barcelona to Paris.
The only track conditon stopping them been used anywhere in the USA would be platform height.

Mr. Benton, to what extent SNCF has contributed to the Talgo equipment pool for both the daylight (via Barcelona) and the overnight (via Bilbao) Paris-Madrid Talgo services, I know (nor care) not.

I believe Mr. Matthews point addressed that Talgo has not succeeded in peddling (OK; marketing) their equipment elsewhere in Europe; namely for routes that do not include Spain.

Once again, let us note that the Spanish economy is ever so slightly starting to improve, and so long as the Euro remains a 'hard' currency (hardly account the labors of Spain and Greece), 'send 'em back where they came from' may prove to be the most expedient alternative.

Yo personas; 'off the shelf' rail equipment MADE IN THE USA.

Perhaps there is a hope that by 2018 Oregon and/or Washington might find cause (and cash) to relieve Talgo of these two sets, after a refit to add the facilities expected out West.

Taking a quick look at the Cascades timetable, the Talgos make the 310 mile trip from Eugene to Seattle in 6 hrs 30 min while the bi-level Starlight takes 8 hours. The Starlight even makes two less stops and both trains handle baggage at many stops.

So for a "high-speed" corridor like Chicago to Detroit/Pontiac, which is almost exactly the same distance at 304 miles, the Talgos will be able to offer much faster service and that's what is needed to attract ridership.

Whatever you think of the Talgos, their unique passive-tilt technology is the only available equipment that can do that. For future development, Talgo has recently introduced it's new Avril version which is 10 ft 6 inches wide and provides greater comfort than it's existing trains. Talgo also claims that their present equipment can be upgraded to up to 220 mph.

This is a great opportunity to more quickly develop a potential new "high-speed" corridor between Chicago and Detroit/Pontiac.