Wisconsin Talgos Disposition - MI and now Pacific Surfliner

It's common knowledge that Amtrak pads the end of a long distance train's schedule. The northbound Coast Starlight schedule between Eugene and Seattle is 8 hours, the southbound schedule is 7.5. hours. There's a half hour of padding on the Coast Starlight. Northbound Cascade trains schedule is 6.5 hours, southbound is 6.67 hours. All trains seem to wait in Portland around 40 minutes. At a minimum, Talgos should make the trip about an hour quicker than Superliners.

Whatever time they save in the Pacific Northwest doesn't mean they can save the same of time in the Midwest. The corridors are different, so the results should be different.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Volks, I sincerely respect any member who holds the view that this is idle passenger rail equipment; and that stuff today is scarcer than hen's teeth.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:. . . Michigan is party to the 'Midwest bi-level' equipment order, which is a-building . . . and I'd like to think there is another three or so years of economic life to the Horizon fleet (they're really 'not all that bad').

The traveling public will also benefit as I can only consider the CHI-DET route (last rode during '12 to ARB) to be arduous - and Talgo equipment can shave time off existing schedules, hey, let's go for it. But what I think is being overlooked is that first Michigan has committed to sufficient equipment in the Midwest bi-level equipment order to meet their existing requirements . . .

Sorry. I don't think the current order for the Midwest bi-level equipment meets the existing requirements. At best the order should allow a one-for-one replacement of current passenger cars with new ones having roughly 30% more capacity.

Really? The schedule St Louis-Chicago will be cut by an hour or so, and we think 30% more seats will be enuff? Let me place a bet that demand will grow by MORE than 30% and will be managed down by significant price increases "reflecting the greater value of the faster trains."

Granted, St Louis-Chicago will be constrained because the State of Illinois negotiated a deal with UP for faster trains -- but not for more of them. You got four daily Lincoln service trains today, you gonna have four daily Lincoln service trains in 2017.

So far as I know, there is no contractual limitation on the number of Wolverine slots, on a route where again an hour and more is being taken out of the schedule, and where ridership could soar by more than 30%. Now most of the Pontiac-Detroit-Ann Arbor-Battle Creek-Kalamazoo-Chicago route is owned by Amtrak and MichiganDOT. They could find space on their own tracks for another train or three on the Wolverines route, if Chicago Union Station capacity issues and the bottleneck South of the Lake do not prevent more runs.

If MichDOT and Amtrak can squeeze even one more train into Chicago, they will need more equipment than the current order for Midwest bi-levels will provide. If MichDOT decides to run a train or two Lansing-Battle Creek-Ann Arbor-Kalamazoo-Dearborn-Detroit-Pontiac, or a second frequency of the Blue Water or Pere Marquette, it will need a lot more equipment than has been ordered from Nippon-Sharyu. Of course, if more frequencies are added, that will stimulate further increases in demand.

MichDOT may need every piece of equipment it can get its hands on, and I admire their effort to grab the unused Talgo trains for as long as they could be needed.

If the Wi sets are to be used in Mi,there will be testing first to set speed limits for Talgo service,for straight and curved track
in both push or pull modes as needed.
As has been noted elsewhere,spare equipment is getting scarce at Chicago,these sets can help for the short term,
it will be sometime next year before the 1st cars from Rochelle will be avaible for testing,have no idea if the 1st delivery
will be to Ca(as Surfliner II"s?) or to the midwest group of states that ordered cars.
After the short term use in Mi service,send the sets west to join the Cascade service.

I'm a regular Talgo rider in the PNW. If MI leases the WI Talgos for the Wolverine service I can guarantee that the overwhelming majority of passengers will find the trains to be comfortable, modern and easy to use. If they also shave a few minutes off the journey, they'll be even more popular.

The current Wolverine schedule requires 3 trainsets. Two of the trainsets overnight in Pontiac and the 3rd spends the night in Chicago. Because MI is paying to lease the trains, I'm sure MI will want to have most of the maintenance performed in MI, by MI residents. Talgo will likely have to establish a temporary maintenance facility near Pontiac to handle routine maintenance. Until ARRA money built a new Talgo O&M facility in Seattle, all the Talgo maintenance was done in a facility that would best be described as a "shed". The facility in Pontiac could also be a temporary "shed". If MI likes their Talgo trains, they could order more and then build a fancy new O & M facility in Pontiac. (I'm sure the blueprints from the Seattle facility have been saved.) Also, the Cascades trainsets are serviced and maintained by unionized Amtrak workers. I'm sure the same arrangement will be used in MI. On the Cascades trains, only the On-Board Tech is a non-union Talgo employee.

There's also the possibility that WA may need another trainset in 2017. The original plan was to reconfigure the existing 5 trainsets into 4 longer trainsets and add the 2 OR trains for a pool of 6 trainsets. When the 2 additional Seattle<>Portland trips are added in 2017, 7 trainsets will be needed. Either the reconfiguration plan will have to be shelved or WA will have to find another trainset. I don't know if Talgo would build 1 trainset for WA at a reasonable price, but if my prediction about the popularity of the Talgo trains in MI comes true and Talgo can deliver on their service guarantees, MI may be looking to add more Talgos to its fleet, too.

Talgos off to Beech Grove?
http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.p ... erry-move/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I assume WI ordered some spare cars for their two sets. Did they order a spare Bistro, spare end car, and spare cab car? If they had, they could make a third set by removing some coaches from the other two sets.

Ron, if spare equipment has been ordered for the WI sets, your assumption would be the first mention of such.

Now regarding the equipment being moved to BEE (facility code for Beech Grove), Talgo understandably wants to vacate their Milwaukee premises; Beech Grove simply represents a secure facility at which to store the equipment until 'something is done with it'. Likely, this storage will be outside, but those familiar with Beech Grove know it is secure and patrolled 24/7. The likelihood of the equipment becoming 'TAGlos' is slight.

I doubt that this move means, or has any bearing one way or the other, on future use of the equipment in Michigan service.

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has reported and confirmed that the Talgo equipment will be moved to Beech Grove. As I immediately noted, Beech Grove is a secure facility and presumably the storage fees payable to Amtrak will be less than at present. Further, the space is now available for commercial/industrial development representing quality jobs rather than several minimum wage security guard positions:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/ ... 78631.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brief passage:

• Talgo, the Spanish train manufacturer that's abandoning its Milwaukee headquarters, is about to transport its two high-speed trains from the city's north side to an Amtrak maintenance facility in Indiana to save on storage costs.
  
  The exact date of the move is still being coordinated, Talgo spokeswoman Nora Friend said. The company is paying for the move and the storage.
  
  The destination, the Beech Grove Shops in Beech Grove, Ind., is Amtrak's primary heavy maintenance and overhaul facility.
  
  The train sets have been idling at a factory in the Century City development on the north side of Milwaukee, an arrangement that brought $29,000 a month in rent to the city. Friend didn't say how much Amtrak was charging for storage.

Be sure to review the reader comments; especially those submitted by JRWOakCreek. Anyone wanna bet that is James Wrinn, Editor of TRAINS?

I hope they're in better shape than this after a few years of storage, but it's not a good sign for their future!

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Be sure to review the reader comments; especially those submitted by JRWOakCreek. Anyone wanna bet that is James Wrinn, Editor of TRAINS?

If so, he's mighty good at playing a character. Several of JRWOakCreek's comments are... a bit too foamy for an editor of Trains.

I'm still holding out hope that Michigan, or Minnesota should we move forward on a second CHI-MSP, will lease this equipment for at least the short term.

I'm betting that any well-informed Editor of TRAINS would know you can't take the Empire Builder to Minneapolis!

I would expect Jim Wrinn would pick up his own spelling mistake too.
I hope these trains get used, and soon.The whole sorry saga has been a blight on the introduction of this equipment.

I have no knowledge when the photo of the Amtrak Turbos, presumably in storage at Bear, was taken, however it appears that the paint has started to deteriorate. What counts is that the equipment is secure until a final disposition of such is made.

While the Talgo equipment being stored at Beech Grove will likely be outside, it will be secured within a facility that is patrolled 24/7 (by security guards or sworn peace officers, I know not). In all likelihood, should the equipment be placed in revenue service anywhere worldwide, it will be reliveried to the operator/sponsor's specifications.

Finally, one can hope that the contractual arrangement between Talgo and Amtrak calls for 'airing' the cars out periodically, lest the interior furnishings need be replaced.

Mr. Norman: more likely that Talgo uses industrial-strength desiccant packets, and if long-term storage is anticipated, shrink wrap. I find wrap unlikely though, until and unless Talgo has given up trying to sell or lease the blasted things.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:I have no knowledge when the photo of the Amtrak Turbos, presumably in storage at Bear, was taken, however it appears that the paint has started to deteriorate. What counts is that the equipment is secure until a final disposition of such is made.

2012 I believe. Makes my blood boil that this was for nothing. And I sincerely hope that the Wisconsin Talgos do not meet the same fate.