King of Prussia Rail

[34thStreet]

Questions:

1) How did SEPTA come to identify the remaining four options as the most desirable? There is no explanation on http://www.kingofprussiarail.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. In fact, the website still shows what it calls "Preliminary Alternatives", which is what I would have expected to be presented at the public meetings.

Yes I don't think the KOP rail website has been updated yet. I'm guessing that they identified these options partly by figuring in cost/complexity to build the line, plus impact on residential neighborhoods. While some people are coming around on the project, there are still a fairly vocal group of people who are scared of having a noisy train in their backyard (those N5 cars are probably quieter than the school playground in mine, but those people have never used the line).

2) Why is the focus on so obviously on the Convention Center / Casino? That isn't so great a traffic generator that it's proximity should reorient the priorities of the project (i.e. the tail wagging the dog).

I'm guessing because, at least for the time being, the Casino is giving the Township a nice financial boost in tax revenue each month, so maybe there is some encouragement from the township to serve the Casino. I agree, I can't see too many people taking the NHSL to the casino, especially considering the massive parking lot they have. But the casino is right down the street from part of the business park area, so it isn't that far of a diversion.

3) How many residences are located along Route 202 that an elevated structure would visually impact? My answer is not many. And if you live in one of the developments located away from the highway, why would it matter.

There aren't a whole lot of residences right on 202 itself, but enough very close that you'd probably see it, i.e. living on Chestnut St, you can still see and hear the El going by in West Philly. One reason could be the former Marquis Apartments, renamed to 251 Dekalb which sits right near 202, I'm guessing some people there wouldn't want to see a giant steel structure running down what is already not a terribly nice view from their "luxury" apartment. Plus Prussian woods sit pretty close to the road. The 202 elevated is all but dead, as the township supervisors are supposed to ask Septa to drop the 202 alignment altogether since it would be an elevated structure. They want to keep the area looking suburban (a little too late for that maybe!) hence no El.

4) Does it make sense to reconsider the viability of a Radnor intermodal transfer station between The Paoli Regional Rail line and NHSL due to travel demand to KoP from areas along the Main Line? This isn't even addressed.

Not a bad idea, they always announce "transfer to the Paoli Thorndale Line" but don't tell you its a decent 10 minute walk up a hill... not fun in the snow. I don't see too many people making that transfer there though.

t.

[ExCon90]

I understood point 4 to mean a new transfer station, like Pennsauken. I would think the proximity to I-476 would greatly restrict what could be done there. At least the 1/2-hour frequency on the R5 (6 days a week, anyway) would be better than on the Atlantic City line.

[25Hz]

I like PECO/turnpike 3. It allows space for KOP mall to expand if they want while still serving the mall properly.

[Clearfield]

Of all of the folks who have been posting on this topic, how many were able to attend either one or both of last week's meetings?

[JeffK]

Of all of the folks who have been posting on this topic, how many were able to attend either one or both of last week's meetings?

I've attended every K of P meeting in the current go-round and have attended most if not all of the dog-and-pony sessions that were held earlier, as far back as the mid-1990s.

2) Why is the focus on so obviously on the Convention Center / Casino? That isn't so great a traffic generator that its [it's] proximity should reorient the priorities of the project (i.e. the tail wagging the dog).

I'm guessing because, at least for the time being, the Casino is giving the Township a nice financial boost in tax revenue each month, so maybe there is some encouragement from the township to serve the Casino. I agree, I can't see too many people taking the NHSL to the casino, especially considering the massive parking lot they have. But the casino is right down the street from part of the business park area, so it isn't that far of a diversion.

It wasn't clear from the Monday meeting whether casino revenues are a driving (pun intended) force behind that routing. More of the discussion was about service to the new Village development which will eventually have many more businesses as well as moderately-high density residences. It's possible that because the Gulph Road routing is already very close to the casino the planners have concluded there's no loss, and a possible gain, from providing a station.

4) Does it make sense to reconsider the viability of a Radnor intermodal transfer station between The Paoli Regional Rail line and NHSL due to travel demand to KoP from areas along the Main Line? This isn't even addressed.

The idea of an intermodal station was at least mentioned. In fact it's been around for decades because on the surface it's such a no-brainer. When the Blue Route was built there were serious plans for a combined transfer / park-and-ride facility but they were shot down due to cost and intense local opposition to "changing the character of the community". I'm not sure if either of those factors has changed today </grumble>.

3) How many residences are located along Route 202 that an elevated structure would visually impact?

I'm guessing some people there wouldn't want to see a giant steel structure...

The presenters took pains to address the perception that the line would be an MFL clone, showing photos of various modern elevated systems that use single-pillar concrete supports. In addition the roadbed would have extra sound-deadening features to further limit noise from what are already pretty quiet vehicles. That said, the consideration's almost certainly moot now.

[JeffersonLeeEng]

3) How many residences are located along Route 202 that an elevated structure would visually impact?

I'm guessing some people there wouldn't want to see a giant steel structure...

The presenters took pains to address the perception that the line would be an MFL clone, showing photos of various modern elevated systems that use single-pillar concrete supports. In addition the roadbed would have extra sound-deadening features to further limit noise from what are already pretty quiet vehicles. That said, the consideration's almost certainly moot now.

Another reason to decry the Route 202 routing is the possibility of yet more traffic disruption for installation of this new branch of rail service. Commuters most recently have had to contend with the construction of the new Target and Wawa. There's currently prolonged construction up the road in Norristown for the Markley Street Improvement Project. And the 202 Expressway construction in Malvern is still underway. I think a lot of people seem to think the 202 corridor is just doomed to have constant road work and traffic snarls forever...

[34thStreet]

Of all of the folks who have been posting on this topic, how many were able to attend either one or both of last week's meetings?

Unfortunately I have not been able to attend since I'm currently in Germany enjoying a rail system that works well (when they're not on strike). I would like to have been there though.

2) Why is the focus on so obviously on the Convention Center / Casino? That isn't so great a traffic generator that its [it's] proximity should reorient the priorities of the project (i.e. the tail wagging the dog).

I'm guessing because, at least for the time being, the Casino is giving the Township a nice financial boost in tax revenue each month, so maybe there is some encouragement from the township to serve the Casino. I agree, I can't see too many people taking the NHSL to the casino, especially considering the massive parking lot they have. But the casino is right down the street from part of the business park area, so it isn't that far of a diversion.

It wasn't clear from the Monday meeting whether casino revenues are a driving (pun intended) force behind that routing. More of the discussion was about service to the new Village development which will eventually have many more businesses as well as moderately-high density residences. It's possible that because the Gulph Road routing is already very close to the casino the planners have concluded there's no loss, and a possible gain, from providing a station.

Interesting. That sounds like a decent plan though, if you're that close to the Casino why not add a stop there. The Village development certainly deserves to have access to this project, especially given the number of people it could add in both residents and visitors on top of the massive amount of traffic in this area that already exists.

3) How many residences are located along Route 202 that an elevated structure would visually impact?

I'm guessing some people there wouldn't want to see a giant steel structure...

The presenters took pains to address the perception that the line would be an MFL clone, showing photos of various modern elevated systems that use single-pillar concrete supports. In addition the roadbed would have extra sound-deadening features to further limit noise from what are already pretty quiet vehicles. That said, the consideration's almost certainly moot now.

I almost wish they would just run it right down 202 at grade and take out a couple lanes of traffic, although I know that would backfire and make the traffic even worse rather than force people onto the train. The 202 alignment makes a lot of sense but yes it is pretty much dead given the residents don't want it and the Twp. Board isn't keen on it either.

[60 Car]

2) Why is the focus on so obviously on the Convention Center / Casino? That isn't so great a traffic generator that it's proximity should reorient the priorities of the project (i.e. the tail wagging the dog).

I'm guessing because, at least for the time being, the Casino is giving the Township a nice financial boost in tax revenue each month, so maybe there is some encouragement from the township to serve the Casino. I agree, I can't see too many people taking the NHSL to the casino, especially considering the massive parking lot they have. But the casino is right down the street from part of the business park area, so it isn't that far of a diversion.

I guess since this is a Rail forum, most of you have not seen the ridership on the Rt 113 and 37 going to Harrah's (formerly Chester) Philadelphia....
Don't count out the possibility of the casino being a significant ridership draw.

[motor]

2) Why is the focus on so obviously on the Convention Center / Casino? That isn't so great a traffic generator that it's proximity should reorient the priorities of the project (i.e. the tail wagging the dog).

I'm guessing because, at least for the time being, the Casino is giving the Township a nice financial boost in tax revenue each month, so maybe there is some encouragement from the township to serve the Casino. I agree, I can't see too many people taking the NHSL to the casino, especially considering the massive parking lot they have. But the casino is right down the street from part of the business park area, so it isn't that far of a diversion.

I guess since this is a Rail forum, most of you have not seen the ridership on the Rt 113 and 37 going to Harrah's (formerly Chester) Philadelphia....
Don't count out the possibility of the casino being a significant ridership draw.

I take it the 113 and the 37 are packed? And is the 113 packed for Union games also?

motor

[gprimr1]

This does seem to be the most bang for your buck.

http://www.kingofprussiarail.com/docs/202_5.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I remember commuting on RT202 with all that construction, so I am sympathetic.

[JeffK]

This does seem to be the most bang for your buck. http://www.kingofprussiarail.com/docs/202_5.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Several of us made that point at the last public meeting, but there's strong opposition to a 202 routing from residents and some businesses even though there have been presentations showing how a modern elevated line would be minimally intrusive; i.e. not the MSFE. In fact, this week the township supervisors recommended against 202 and in favor of choosing among the PECO/Turnpike options.

In all fairness it's not just opposition to a rail line. There's been long-standing dislike of any construction higher than one or two stories at the edge of major arteries. Plans for high-rise apartments and so on have been met with similar reactions.