King of Prussia Rail

[34thStreet]

I thought there was already a discussion somewhere on here about this, but I can't seem to find it. The King of Prussia Rail Project (NHSL aka P&W extension to KOP) looks to be moving forward with public meetings happening this week to narrow down some of the routing options. The township supervisors seem to definitely be on board with this, as does Septa, which would just leave money and the NIMBY's who think Septa is building another MFL in KOP.

Since I live in KOP and use the NHSL to get into the city regularly, I'd really like to see this project happen, as the closest station to me is Hughes Park which does not have any parking, or Gulph Mills which is a pain in the rear end to get to thanks to the gridlock this area has.

Attached are the details of the proposed routes, along with the possible locations for stations. I like some sort of combination of Alternatives 1 and 3, as this would hit all of the big potentials for ridership, i.e. shopping center along Henderson Rd, The Plaza & Court of the Mall, The Lockheed Martin site, The new development at the former golf course now called the Village at Valley Forge, plus the casino and VF towers. Alt. 3 doesn't hit the Village at VF, instead it goes straight through the business park, which Alt. 1 doesn't do.

This would be at-grade, as the supervisors and residents are not interested in having the elevated structure down Dekalb/202 as Septa had been discussing initially.Thoughts?

Hopefully the attachments work... they are courtesy of one the U.M. supervisors who is excellent at posting this sort of information on social media.

[34thStreet]

Here is the alt. 3... didn't upload the first time.

[JeffersonLeeEng]

Carl Rotenberg's article in the Times Herald ( http://www.timesherald.com/general-news ... at-meeting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) says that construction for this extension is planned to start sometime in eight to ten years. IMO, they keep on talking and talking about this and the idea of waiting over a decade for anything to happen in this regard is ridiculous. If they say that the demand is currently present, why wasn't this done yesterday? For the next few years, SEPTA and other business leaders are going to have a hard time fighting for any reasonable modicum of Federal and other government funding to even proceed the next phase of planning. What's the point in all this if the finished project can't be realized until after my parents have quite possibly passed away?

[JeffK]

A number of us expressed our frustration and concern with the timeline. It seems that projects in other areas have moved ahead far faster.

In all fairness some of the delay may be due to funding issues (there's still < 30% of the needed money available) and the difficulty of finding a reasonable route given that the township has become a poster child for sprawl. For example the 202 alternative would make the most sense for accessibility but has the least support due to the visual impact of an elevated structure. A couple of other possibilities appear reasonable on paper until you look at a topographic map or examine the environmental impact. Finally, there are competing demands for service from the Village (Wegmans / CHOP / etc.) area and the 1st Ave. / Moore Rd. business parks that have to be resolved because again, there's only enough money to build one of the two proposed "arms" from the trunk line at the Plaza.

Another problem is that without a definite route, neither UM nor SEPTA has any way to postpone development that could stymie one or more of the alternatives. E.g. the idea of a station inside the Mall is already dead because the owners didn't want to wait for SEPTA's plans to be finalized; a developer could decide to build on one of the other routings and there's apparently very little that could be done to prevent it.

[Push&Pull Master]

I think that Peco/Turnpike Alt. 1 makes the most sense. It gets 7 stations total and doesn't run along any creeks. Also, it hits both the business park and the Villages at Valley Forge. The one thing that worries me is funding, especially after the article from a few weeks ago. I'll post it later if anyone is interested.

[SCB2525]

The prospect of any expansion at SEPTA is exciting but I'm still rather unconvinced that this project should be what SEPTA is throwing its weight behind versus so many other worthwhile projects with likely higher riderships, farebox recoveries and reduction in VMT.

[25Hz]

It's too bad they cannot extend the line into the business park from the west... seems a long way to walk if it only curves on the west side.....

[zebrasepta]

did they mention how close they're gonna build to the turnpike if they go with that option?

[JeffK]

The prospect of any expansion at SEPTA is exciting but I'm still rather unconvinced that this project should be what SEPTA is throwing its weight behind versus so many other worthwhile projects with likely higher riderships, farebox recoveries and reduction in VMT.

Arguably SEPTA has a lot of projects that should have been underway years ago. I'd love to see rails up Roosevelt Blvd, back to Reading and West Chester, to the Navy Yard, and lots of other places, but the P&W extension is the one that's both closest to starting and within financial reach. Cars and substations are already bought and paid for; while an estimate of $500-$650 million to lay rails ain't cheap it's still a lot less than what would be needed for those other extensions which gives it a pretty high ROI. In addition there's 3 or 4 years of planning already in place. A different project's clock would start from zero, plus shifting resources away from the P&W would put the brakes on momentum that's already building. There's a consensus of support from local government, businesses, and the community (more or less) which makes it the new start that's most likely to happen even if it isn't necessarily the "best" one.

did they mention how close they're gonna build to the turnpike if they go with that option?

Nothing definite yet. I got the impression that the routings are still kind of broad-brush, but then I don't have access to any more info than was presented at the meetings.

[SCB2525]

The prospect of any expansion at SEPTA is exciting but I'm still rather unconvinced that this project should be what SEPTA is throwing its weight behind versus so many other worthwhile projects with likely higher riderships, farebox recoveries and reduction in VMT.

Arguably SEPTA has a lot of projects that should have been underway years ago. I'd love to see rails up Roosevelt Blvd, back to Reading and West Chester, to the Navy Yard, and lots of other places, but the P&W extension is the one that's both closest to starting and within financial reach. Cars and substations are already bought and paid for; while an estimate of $500-$650 million to lay rails ain't cheap it's still a lot less than what would be needed for those other extensions which gives it a pretty high ROI. In addition there's 3 or 4 years of planning already in place. A different project's clock would start from zero, plus shifting resources away from the P&W would put the brakes on momentum that's already building. There's a consensus of support from local government, businesses, and the community (more or less) which makes it the new start that's most likely to happen even if it isn't necessarily the "best" one.

I would agree with you, but in light of an embarrassingly long projection of 8 years from NOW (which I even doubt) I find myself deeply disappointed that we may have to wait 20-30 for any of the more worthwhile expansions such as those you mentioned. Deeply disappointed.

[JeffK]

... in light of an embarrassingly long projection of 8 years from NOW (which I even doubt) I find myself deeply disappointed that we may have to wait 20-30 for any of the more worthwhile expansions such as those you mentioned. Deeply disappointed.

Several of us at the meeting expressed our frustration with the timeline. Other cities have taken light-rail new starts from the planning phase to collecting fares in the length of time it's taking this one project to reach critical mass. Admittedly many of them didn't have to contend with the contortions of fitting tracks into an already built-up landscape or the vagaries of PA politics, but the proposed timeline still seems far too elongated.

As enthusiastic as I am for the extension, I have a real fear that the only way I'll ever be able to ride it will be if they bring back funeral trolleys.

[Clearfield]

The extended timeline may correspond with the estimated ability to fund the project. From the federal funding standpoint, the best thing this project has going for it is pollution mitigation.

[Tritransit Area]

If there were more in the way of private investors and a way to provide an additional dedicated tax towards building this faster, it could be build a bit sooner. However, when primarily relying on federal funding, you have to go through all the red tape! Sigh...

[Bill R.]

Questions:

1) How did SEPTA come to identify the remaining four options as the most desirable? There is no explanation on http://www.kingofprussiarail.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. In fact, the website still shows what it calls "Preliminary Alternatives", which is what I would have expected to be presented at the public meetings.

2) Why is the focus on so obviously on the Convention Center / Casino? That isn't so great a traffic generator that it's proximity should reorient the priorities of the project (i.e. the tail wagging the dog).

3) How many residences are located along Route 202 that an elevated structure would visually impact? My answer is not many. And if you live in one of the developments located away from the highway, why would it matter.

4) Does it make sense to reconsider the viability of a Radnor intermodal transfer station between The Paoli Regional Rail line and NHSL due to travel demand to KoP from areas along the Main Line? This isn't even addressed.

It appears that, yet again, a Delaware Valley rail project is being inappropriately influenced by private-sector agendas as opposed to using the common good as the guiding principle.

Because it is a regional center of employment, the significance of the access provided by the extension is somewhat greater than it might otherwise be. Call me Jersey-centric, but - as someone who chose not to take a job in King of Prussia 25 years ago because of the lack of effective public transportation - the remaining Tier 2 alternatives do very little to make KoP more attractive from the standpoint of commuting to an employer there.

Apparently going straight up Allendale Road from the Mall - which would provide direct access to many of the office buildings - was never considered, but at least using the railroad R.O.W. north of the Turnpike provided access to some of the same businesses. Continuing north to the river would provide the opportunity for an intermodal transfer station near Abrams Yard between the KoPHSL and an extension of the Manayunk/Norristown Regional Rail Line. None of the remaining options can access both the businesses and the river. How many people would ride from Limerick to Norristown and then backtrack to KoP?

If the primary purpose is now serving the Mall and the Casino while marginalizing other destinations, then SCB2525 is correct in his assessment.

[SCB2525]

2) Why is the focus on so obviously on the Convention Center / Casino? That isn't so great a traffic generator that it's proximity should reorient the priorities of the project (i.e. the tail wagging the dog).

Casinos are also quite fickle in terms of long-term planning. Very few casinos will remain an attraction or even extant in 20 to 40 years. An office building may turnover tenants but by and large is expected to remain indefinitely (or replaced in kind) and will remain stable in terms of trips generated. Even that is less assured in a decentralized area of sprawl such as KOP which goes further to make the worth of this extension questionable, although the rail lines very existence would hopefully assist in keeping the area stable. Above all of this is the fact that one of the key reasons for modern transit expansion is in anticipation of or in tandem with transit-oriented development, redevelopment of depressed areas, or in easing congestion in established, densely populated areas. As most of the area around the proposal is built-up in sprawl fashion and near 100% occupancy, this project does not qualify in that regard.

I also am disappointed in the routings at the endpoints. If the planets align, transit expansion becomes a more widely supported notion and our grandchildren or great grandchildren decided that it would be nice to extend this extension to say Phoenixville, Oaks, Paoli or wherever, we've basically left them with a route whose endpoint partially curls back in on itself.