North-South Rail Link Discussion

[MBTA3247]

East Boston Tunnel trolleys were hauled through the Cambridge Subway from the Longfellow to Eliot Shops from 1916 to 1924 (and EBT subway cars from 1924 to 1952). I believe those cars would clear third rail (as they were early high-floor designs) though they used wire while in the subway. Trolleys and subway cars never mixed in revenue service.

The crossovers from the streetcar tracks to the Red Line on the Longfellow Bridge weren't built until 1924. There would have been no need for streetcars to utilize the Cambridge Subway in the years prior to that - they could just use the surface tracks all the way to Brattle Street.

Excluding work cars, I think the only streetcars to ever travel through the Cambridge Subway were PCCs being towed to/from Ashmont.

[Red Wing]

I think it is too costly to build intermediate deep stations along Atlantic Ave/Surface Artery, even Aquarium. There's plenty of subway stations nearby, or they can build a trolley line on the surface for less than the cost of deep stations.

The biggest way to reduce the loads on the subway system is the central station of the NSRL and a Blue Red connection at Charles.

[The EGE]

East Boston Tunnel trolleys were hauled through the Cambridge Subway from the Longfellow to Eliot Shops from 1916 to 1924 (and EBT subway cars from 1924 to 1952). I believe those cars would clear third rail (as they were early high-floor designs) though they used wire while in the subway. Trolleys and subway cars never mixed in revenue service.

The crossovers from the streetcar tracks to the Red Line on the Longfellow Bridge weren't built until 1924. There would have been no need for streetcars to utilize the Cambridge Subway in the years prior to that - they could just use the surface tracks all the way to Brattle Street.

Excluding work cars, I think the only streetcars to ever travel through the Cambridge Subway were PCCs being towed to/from Ashmont.

Thank you - I stand corrected.

[Bramdeisroberts]

I think it is too costly to build intermediate deep stations along Atlantic Ave/Surface Artery, even Aquarium. There's plenty of subway stations nearby, or they can build a trolley line on the surface for less than the cost of deep stations.

The biggest way to reduce the loads on the subway system is the central station of the NSRL and a Blue Red connection at Charles.

And if the state was REALLY serious about making the NSRL work, they would bring Massport into the discussion. Building a rail loop around Logan central carking was something that they allotted space for back in the earliest planning stages of the big dig, and given Massport's continual willingness to invest big bucks into Logan, getting a Blue Line spur to loop around central parking with a A-B station and a C-D one (which cuts costs down since you're still only building two platforms) would not be outside the realm of possibility.

IF that's the case, then it also wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to get Massport to go in on the cost of building that central station, because now, Every. Single. Point. in the commuter rail system would potentially be a two-seat ride from a Logan check-in counter. With Logan's surging passenger loads contrasting with it's continual lack of space in which to build new parking garages, this becomes much, MUCH more feasible than it would have ever seemed 10 or 20 years ago.

[Gerry6309]

East Boston Tunnel trolleys were hauled through the Cambridge Subway from the Longfellow to Eliot Shops from 1916 to 1924 (and EBT subway cars from 1924 to 1952). I believe those cars would clear third rail (as they were early high-floor designs) though they used wire while in the subway. Trolleys and subway cars never mixed in revenue service.

The crossovers from the streetcar tracks to the Red Line on the Longfellow Bridge weren't built until 1924. There would have been no need for streetcars to utilize the Cambridge Subway in the years prior to that - they could just use the surface tracks all the way to Brattle Street.

Excluding work cars, I think the only streetcars to ever travel through the Cambridge Subway were PCCs being towed to/from Ashmont.

Thank you - I stand corrected.

Ah, not quite...

In the days before Everett Shops opened, from about 1912 to 1922, just about every new streetcar received by the Elevated was bought into the Eliot Shops to be prepared for service, Which included installing most of the running gear. Some may have been tested in the subway after hours.

Cars prepared for service at Eliot:

235 Type 4s: 5241-5475
225 Trailers: 7000-7224
405 Center Entrance Motor Cars 6000-6404

865 cars total

5191-5240 and the Birney cars were probably done at Bartlett
Not sure on the first 100 Type 5s possibly Eliot, possibly Everett

Also, the connecting crossover at First St. existed as early as 1911. The first 60 Cambridge Tunnel cars were delivered on their own wheels via the Grand Junction, then towed by surface cars over a temporary connection and along Broadway and Main St. to First St. where they were shifted onto the rapid transit tracks. Crane 0551 came the same way, a ticklish move because its steel cab was about the same height as the trolley wire in the subway. When it arrived at Eliot its cab was resculpted to provide the necessary clearance, but the boom had to be at a certain height before the crane could move. This was insured by two tie-down cables, which kept it centered and at the proper height. Some No. 7 Elevated cars were delivered to Eliot the same way in 1919, and then shipped back to Sullivan that way following the arrival of the No. 3 Cambridge Tunnel cars in 1919.

Lastly, from 1916 to April, 1924, there was scheduled passenger service between East Boston and Cambridge/Somerville via the Longfellow.

BTW Brattle St only provided a connection between Harvard Sq. and Mount Auburn St. - the car house was off Bennett St.

Back closer to the topic:

The Red - Blue Connector could be implemented at low cost with an El structure from S. Russell St ending with a terminal adjacent to the existing station. It would cost a couple of hundred million less than extending the subway, but would not go over well on Beacon Hill.

[Charliemta]

East Boston Tunnel trolleys were hauled through the Cambridge Subway from the Longfellow to Eliot Shops from 1916 to 1924 (and EBT subway cars from 1924 to 1952). I believe those cars would clear third rail (as they were early high-floor designs) though they used wire while in the subway. Trolleys and subway cars never mixed in revenue service.

The crossovers from the streetcar tracks to the Red Line on the Longfellow Bridge weren't built until 1924. There would have been no need for streetcars to utilize the Cambridge Subway in the years prior to that - they could just use the surface tracks all the way to Brattle Street.

Excluding work cars, I think the only streetcars to ever travel through the Cambridge Subway were PCCs being towed to/from Ashmont.

There used to be an overhead trolley wire on the Red Line when I was a kid back in the 1950's and 60's, and I recall seeing the same on the Orange Line.

What were these overhead trolley wires used for if the non-revenue trolley cars were just towed by the heavy rail cars?

[MBTA3247]

East Boston Tunnel trolleys were hauled through the Cambridge Subway from the Longfellow to Eliot Shops from 1916 to 1924 (and EBT subway cars from 1924 to 1952). I believe those cars would clear third rail (as they were early high-floor designs) though they used wire while in the subway. Trolleys and subway cars never mixed in revenue service.

The crossovers from the streetcar tracks to the Red Line on the Longfellow Bridge weren't built until 1924. There would have been no need for streetcars to utilize the Cambridge Subway in the years prior to that - they could just use the surface tracks all the way to Brattle Street.

Excluding work cars, I think the only streetcars to ever travel through the Cambridge Subway were PCCs being towed to/from Ashmont.

Thank you - I stand corrected.

Ah, not quite...

In the days before Everett Shops opened, from about 1912 to 1922, just about every new streetcar received by the Elevated was bought into the Eliot Shops to be prepared for service, Which included installing most of the running gear. Some may have been tested in the subway after hours.

Cars prepared for service at Eliot:

235 Type 4s: 5241-5475
225 Trailers: 7000-7224
405 Center Entrance Motor Cars 6000-6404

865 cars total

5191-5240 and the Birney cars were probably done at Bartlett
Not sure on the first 100 Type 5s possibly Eliot, possibly Everett

Also, the connecting crossover at First St. existed as early as 1911. The first 60 Cambridge Tunnel cars were delivered on their own wheels via the Grand Junction, then towed by surface cars over a temporary connection and along Broadway and Main St. to First St. where they were shifted onto the rapid transit tracks. Crane 0551 came the same way, a ticklish move because its steel cab was about the same height as the trolley wire in the subway. When it arrived at Eliot its cab was resculpted to provide the necessary clearance, but the boom had to be at a certain height before the crane could move. This was insured by two tie-down cables, which kept it centered and at the proper height. Some No. 7 Elevated cars were delivered to Eliot the same way in 1919, and then shipped back to Sullivan that way following the arrival of the No. 3 Cambridge Tunnel cars in 1919.

Lastly, from 1916 to April, 1924, there was scheduled passenger service between East Boston and Cambridge/Somerville via the Longfellow.

BTW Brattle St only provided a connection between Harvard Sq. and Mount Auburn St. - the car house was off Bennett St.

D'oh, I got my streets mixed up! Why would the streetcars get set up at Eliot Shops instead of Bennett St Carhouse?

I was looking at the track charts from 1915 or so last night, and there was no connection shown between the surface tracks and the rapid transit tracks on the Longfellow Bridge. That doesn't preclude the use of a temporary connection when needed, of course.

[MBTA3247]

There used to be an overhead trolley wire on the Red Line when I was a kid back in the 1950's and 60's, and I recall seeing the same on the Orange Line.

What were these overhead trolley wires used for if the non-revenue trolley cars were just towed by the heavy rail cars?

The rapid transit lines and streetcar lines used the same work cars for many years, and they all had trolley poles (which are much safer when doing track work than third rails).

[Charliemta]

Thank you for the info! I always wondered what the overhead wires' function was.

[Gerry6309]

D'oh, I got my streets mixed up! Why would the streetcars get set up at Eliot Shops instead of Bennett St Carhouse?

I was looking at the track charts from 1915 or so last night, and there was no connection shown between the surface tracks and the rapid transit tracks on the Longfellow Bridge. That doesn't preclude the use of a temporary connection when needed, of course.

The connection at First St. went in and out as needed. It may have been there in 1915, but not considered surface lines trackage.

Most surface cars came and went by way of a ramp between the shop and Murray St.

Bennett St. car house was the primary maintenance shop for Division 7, often the largest on the system. It opened about a year after Eliot, and replaced several smaller facilities. Bennett St. had too much work.

Eliot, on the other hand was a 40 car shop servicing a forty car fleet. If it was running at half capacity, the Cambridge Subway was in deep trouble. (The 20 No. 2 cars were accepted in 1912 and put in storage until needed, ca. 1916.)

Eliot not only had excess capacity, but the latest machinery. It had excess capacity until it closed, though it was taxed for a while in the late 50s, when the old cars were on their last legs.

Lets get back on topic, things that will never be, rather than things that were.

[Gerry6309]

There used to be an overhead trolley wire on the Red Line when I was a kid back in the 1950's and 60's, and I recall seeing the same on the Orange Line.

What were these overhead trolley wires used for if the non-revenue trolley cars were just towed by the heavy rail cars?

The rapid transit lines and streetcar lines used the same work cars for many years, and they all had trolley poles (which are much safer when doing track work than third rails).

At the beginning, the Cambridge Tunnel had four work cars of its own:

0551 Wrecking Crane
0552 Box Motor
0553 Wrecking Tool Car
0554 Flat (Garbage) Car

Only 0552 was powered, though 0551 had a single motor for flexibility at work sites.

Surface work cars were of all types, and were very flexible, thus the trolley wire was provided.

[Rbts Stn]

How about a monorail? http://www.universalhub.com/2015/no-lon ... r-proposes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No worries about the single seat issue, but it's a MONORAIL!! Like at Disney!

[Palmer5RR]

How about a monorail?

mmmm... I think I saw this story on the Simpsons https://youtu.be/ZDOI0cq6GZM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (The Monorail Song)

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

How about a monorail? http://www.universalhub.com/2015/no-lon ... r-proposes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No worries about the single seat issue, but it's a MONORAIL!! Like at Disney!

BREAKING: Steven Murphy is not very bright.

[Balerion]

Rail link advocates continue push for $2 M. study

Progress on obtaining a study — any study — into a proposed rail link connecting Boston’s North and South stations chugged along as the proposal's working group met for the second time at the State House on Monday.

Gov. Charlie Baker said his administration still is weighing the potential scale and scope of a study.

Last week, Rep. Seth Moulton told POLITICO Massachusetts that he would be interested in a public-private partnership to develop the rail link, similar to a high-speed rail project in Texas. Bellows said on Monday that a public-private partnership has been explored with the North-South link project.

But Arena threw cold water on the idea. “We just don’t do that in Massachusetts,” Arena said of a public-private venture. “There is a bias against it, in my opinion. It’s not second nature. Maybe it’s the Yankee skepticism and hesitation.”

A minor update, but no real news just yet.